Please help me identify this No. 4 Enfield

Timberlord said:
It appears to be a nice Jungle Carbine fersure...$200 you have a helluva nice rifle.
But looking at the receiver it's not a No5 Mk1
If this is a Enfield No5 varient , it certainly would be interesting to hear about .
No4 receiver top...No5 bottom
* note the lightening cuts under the rearsight and the fluting on the barrel.
No5No4.jpg
Click to expand...

It is definitely not a No 5, I know them well. I have one.
 
cantom said:
Hitzy- I find your tone more than a little bit insulting. Would you speak thus in front of my face or only hiding behind a keyboard? I wouldn't recommend it friend.

The transfer just took place...the lady from the CFC told him that it is a model No 4 1/2, which is also what he had told me. She said it was made for the Royal Marine Commandos and they were also made in 7.62. That's right from the CFC folks.
Milarms' specimen also has an uncrowned barrel. Ask Gordon about these rifles.
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Interesting. The No.4Mk1/2 is a long rifle with a 20.25" barrel, no flash hider. I have one right in front of me and it looks nothing like your rifle. If your rifle has No.4Mk1/2 writtin on the receiver, then that is what it USED to be.

Also, I am a verifyer and I just looked in the FRT. No Enfield is listed with specific info about unit issue except for the Siamese contract BSA rifles. Definitely nothing about "Royal Marine Commandos" and I use the same database the CFC uses...

Gotta call BS on this story, sorry. It's just not true. :rolleyes:

Lastly, the ONLY 7.62 rifle ever issued to British (as opposed to Indian or Australian) forces were the L4A1 through L4A4 series. They were full sized No.4 lookalikes in 7.62 and only a few thousand were ever made. They are still in the UK, never released from stores. Again, you don't have one.

By the way - for your own sake - please stop regarding Milarm as "experts" in anything. they are one of the most shady outfits in Canada with respect to milsurps.
 
Just checked the FRT as well. Couldn't find it, unless the Commercial and Non-commercial Customizations categories for ROF(F) rifles are used. 636-1, 640mm bbl., and 636-2, 559mm bbl.
Lady from the CFC told HIM.... Did anyone at the CFC tell YOU anything?
No mention in the FRT of any similar rifle in 7.62mm.
Have you removed the handguard? It is longer than a standard No. 4 rear handguard. Is it made in one piece, or is there a joint? If there is, how is it made? What sort of adhesive was used?
Do you know the FRT number that was assigned to the rifle? If you know this number, it would be easy to check the CFC story.
Barring real documentation, any story is just that. The price is such that you didn't pay for the story. This suggests that the seller didn't think the story has $ value. Let's face it, if the rifle were a Royal Marines Commando variant, it would be documented. A query to the Pattern Room collection curator at the Royal Armoury in Leeds would be a good idea. If the rifle is what it is purported to be, there will be a specimen there, with provenance.
 
tiriaq said:
Just checked the FRT as well. Couldn't find it, unless the Commercial and Non-commercial Customizations categories for ROF(F) rifles are used. 636-1, 640mm bbl., and 636-2, 559mm bbl.
Lady from the CFC told HIM.... Did anyone at the CFC tell YOU anything?
No mention in the FRT of any similar rifle in 7.62mm.
Have you removed the handguard? It is longer than a standard No. 4 rear handguard. Is it made in one piece, or is there a joint? If there is, how is it made? What sort of adhesive was used?
Do you know the FRT number that was assigned to the rifle? If you know this number, it would be easy to check the CFC story.
Barring real documentation, any story is just that. The price is such that you didn't pay for the story. This suggests that the seller didn't think the story has $ value. Let's face it, if the rifle were a Royal Marines Commando variant, it would be documented. A query to the Pattern Room collection curator at the Royal Armoury in Leeds would be a good idea. If the rifle is what it is purported to be, there will be a specimen there, with provenance.
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I had the top handguard off the other day, it certainly appeared to be one piece. It was cut just in front of the steel piece. I didn't see any obvious joins, although that doesn't mean there wasn't one.
I actually took the top cover off to look for lightening cuts on the barrel and/or receiver, and there are none. If pressed I could take it off again, although without enthusiasm(it was a pain to get the screw started in the loop again).

I took your excellent advice and sent this email to the Curator at the Royal Armoury just now.

http://s94.photobucket.com/albums/l88/cantom_2006/

Are you familiar with this ROF (F) No 4 Mk 1 rifle with 11/43 mfg date? I
recently acquired it in Canada. There are a number of these floating around
in Canada. People I've spoken to have seen more than 10 of them over the
years. I know the location of two others of them right now.

The story I've heard is they were for the Royal Marine Commandoes. A person I know in a gun shop says he has a picture of British soldiers with them.

It is most definitely not a No 5 mk 1 Jungle Carbine, I am not confused on
that score.

The bolt has the hollow handle and lightening cut of a Jungle Carbine, and
does not have a Jungle Carbine serial number. I see no lightening cuts on
the receiver. All the metal work is gray parkerizing or similar, no sign of
any black paint ever on this arm.

Any comment or info would be much appreciated.

Sincerely,

Tom
 
I've seen these rifles before.

My theory is that there was a batch made up by someone and sold. Perhaps they might have been done up by an ex-royal marine :) in his garage/shop

But without a proper crown you can be sure that it was not done by an armourier as an authorized modification.

However they are not a one off modification which makes them interesting.

I know that old man kerr of milarm seems to think it is something, and he does know a bit about enfields, but gord is full of it as usual. $500 is not what I'de pay for it but $200 because its an interesting bubba perhaps.
 
cantom said:
The story I've heard is they were for the Royal Marine Commandoes. A person I know in a gun shop says he has a picture of British soldiers with them.
Click to expand...

Please find and post the pic. Would neither prove nor disprove anything, but I bet the pic either doesn't exist or it's a different gun pictured in it.

It will also be interesting to see what comes back from the "Curator of the Royal Armoury", but he will likely ask for better pics - they are awful and there isn't a single full-length pic.

As for "Bubba", all it means is "altered from original" and never in use by a martial agency. A Bubba can be a one-off, or can be done in the thousands. It can be a work of art, or it can be a horrible hack job. Unless the former, it will almost always be worth much less than an un-buggered example.

I'm willing to bet that when this comes to a close:

- no legitimate pic exists;
- the Curator says "no";
- you will still have your $200 worth (parts and an interesting story and gun); and
- although thoroughly debunked, owners of similar guns will cling to their story and continue to rip off unsuspecting and well-meaning buyers.
 
Andy said:
Please find and post the pic. Would neither prove nor disprove anything, but I bet the pic either doesn't exist or it's a different gun pictured in it.

It will also be interesting to see what comes back from the "Curator of the Royal Armoury", but he will likely ask for better pics - they are awful and there isn't a single full-length pic.

As for "Bubba", all it means is "altered from original" and never in use by a martial agency. A Bubba can be a one-off, or can be done in the thousands. It can be a work of art, or it can be a horrible hack job. Unless the former, it will almost always be worth much less than an un-buggered example.

I'm willing to bet that when this comes to a close:

- no legitimate pic exists;
- the Curator says "no";
- you will still have your $200 worth (parts and an interesting story and gun); and
- although thoroughly debunked, owners of similar guns will cling to their story and continue to rip off unsuspecting and well-meaning buyers.
Click to expand...

It was Milarm who said they have the pic, but not sure where. I know what you'll say about that...
I've sent my email to almost every email address at the Curator, and they have all bounced back-may not be valid addresses.
It's certainly nice enough to be worth $220(I paid him for his gas coming here and getting it back from me, against his protests).
 
I have seen those before also, probably made up by an outfit like Globco in Ottawa or some other bubba shop long ago. I think I met your seller at Toronto shows also with this rifle a few years ago, going on about the Commando story and how it was in Skennerton book on Enfields. Just nodded and said OK Fine!!!!!
 
cantom said:
It was Milarm who said they have the pic, but not sure where. I know what you'll say about that...
I've sent my email to almost every email address at the Curator, and they have all bounced back-may not be valid addresses.
It's certainly nice enough to be worth $220(I paid him for his gas coming here and getting it back from me, against his protests).
Click to expand...

The curator of the MOD pattern room was Herb Woodend. He died of cancer almost two years ago, a shame as he was a caring and interesting man to talk to. Around the time of his death, the pattern room at Leeds was closed to the public and its contents were packed up and shipped to (if I recall) the Royal Armories at Enfield where they are now closed to public scrutiny. I doubt anyone there will answer any e-mail you send.

If Herb was still here, he'd agree with us and you would probably still choose to believe you've got some special treasure. People just don't want to know the truth sometimes ;)

And yes, Milarm is full of BS. I doubt they could tell you the difference between a No.4 mk1 and a No.4Mk1/2, let alone any verifyable provenance on your rifle. Their "picture" will likely only be admitted to until they sell the other rifle for $500, at which time it will have "been lost".

Why not write to Ian Skennerton and send your pictures there? You know Ian, don't you? the man who wrote "The Lee Enfield Story", generally regarded as the most knowledgeable Enfield man alive? Ian has spent more time in the MOD pattern room than you have been breathing, I'll wager. Here's his address: idskennerton@hotmail.com
 
JP said:
and how it was in Skennerton book on Enfields.
Click to expand...

Nothing like gunshow fiction, huh JP? ;) I have the book, and this rifle ain't in it!!

Closest looking thing is maybe a Lithgow No.6Mk1... but it's not even the same action ;)
 
The Pattern Room collection was at Enfield for ages, then moved to a facility within the Royal Ordnance compund at Nottingham. It was subsequently stored away at Leeds. More recently, it has reopened for access by serious students with advance arrangements. My son spent a week at Nottingham doing research on the Janocek squeeze bore system, and knew Herb.
 
The curator of the MOD pattern room was Herb Woodend. He died of cancer almost two years ago, a shame as he was a caring and interesting man to talk to. Around the time of his death, the pattern room at Leeds was closed to the public and its contents were packed up and shipped to (if I recall) the Royal Armories at Enfield where they are now closed to public scrutiny
Click to expand...

I think it was the other way around, the pattern room collection is being set up at the armouries in leeds. Herb Did die of cancer not to long ago and your right he was a great and very knowledgeable guy.
 
happydude said:
I have a 1944 Longbranch marked sks if anyone is interested. :dancingbanana:

Seriously though, $200 for a fake No.5 is not bad at all.
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I paid 200.00 for a real No5 at a gunshow before and it was in super nice cond.
 
tiriaq said:
The Pattern Room collection was at Enfield for ages, then moved to a facility within the Royal Ordnance compund at Nottingham. It was subsequently stored away at Leeds. More recently, it has reopened for access by serious students with advance arrangements.
Click to expand...
Tiriaq is right, general inquiries to the Pattern Room will not be answered anymore and you have to have an invitation to view the collection or get inside contact information.

As Claven2 said your best bet is to send an e-mail with pictures to Ian Skennerton, he will respond and my bet is that he debunks the story.

However, if he does say it has merit send me some more detailed pictures and I will foreward them to my contacts at the Pattern Room.
 
Claven2 said:
The curator of the MOD pattern room was Herb Woodend. He died of cancer almost two years ago, a shame as he was a caring and interesting man to talk to. Around the time of his death, the pattern room at Leeds was closed to the public and its contents were packed up and shipped to (if I recall) the Royal Armories at Enfield where they are now closed to public scrutiny. I doubt anyone there will answer any e-mail you send.

If Herb was still here, he'd agree with us and you would probably still choose to believe you've got some special treasure. People just don't want to know the truth sometimes ;)

And yes, Milarm is full of BS. I doubt they could tell you the difference between a No.4 mk1 and a No.4Mk1/2, let alone any verifyable provenance on your rifle. Their "picture" will likely only be admitted to until they sell the other rifle for $500, at which time it will have "been lost".

Why not write to Ian Skennerton and send your pictures there? You know Ian, don't you? the man who wrote "The Lee Enfield Story", generally regarded as the most knowledgeable Enfield man alive? Ian has spent more time in the MOD pattern room than you have been breathing, I'll wager. Here's his address: idskennerton@hotmail.com
Click to expand...

Thanks for Skennerton's address...this whole mess will now land resoundingly in his lap...hehehe.
 
Mudpuppy said:
Tiriaq is right, general inquiries to the Pattern Room will not be answered anymore and you have to have an invitation to view the collection or get inside contact information.

As Claven2 said your best bet is to send an e-mail with pictures to Ian Skennerton, he will respond and my bet is that he debunks the story.

However, if he does say it has merit send me some more detailed pictures and I will foreward them to my contacts at the Pattern Room.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the offer and standby for Skennerton's reply...whatever it may be...:cool:

I emailed him this:


Dear Mr. Skennerton:


Since you are the acknowledged expert on things Enfield, I've been pushed to
request info and opinion from you on a rifle I just bought. The rather poor
pics are here

http://s94.photobucket.com/albums/l88/cantom_2006/

There is a rather interesting thread developing on the Canadian Gun Nutz
website about these rifles. It can be found here: Registration may be
necessary and may be worth it, because new info keep surfacing by the post.

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=100597

People say they were made for the Royal Marine Commandos. Others say that is
ridiculous, the rifle is a Bubba etc. Quite a few people have seen these
rifles in Canada and I know of two other examples right now, pics may be
forthcoming. Milarm in Edmonton Alberta Canada ( http://www.milarm.com/ )
has one there and says he's seen at least 10 of them over the years. He also
said they have a picture in their store somewhere showing British soldiers
carrying these rifles. He had some interesting background, but is it true?

The Canadian Firearms Centre said (I was told) that they are a No. 4 and a
half... they are aware of them so I was told...they said they were also
made in 7.62 mm.
How accurate all that is is up for conjecture of course.
The experienced experts on CGNTZ are convinced that these rifles are phoney.

The rifle is grey parkerized(gray something like parkerizing), not black
paint.
It says No. 4 ROF (F) 11/43
The serial number has been partially scrubbed/obliterated on the left side
butt socket, and a new one stamped under it. The word England is above it.

The bolt has a Jungle Carbine type hole in the knob, the serial number is
not matching the receiver. It is not a Jungle Carbine serial number on the
bolt. I have a no 5 and the serials are usually something like Z and 4
digits.

The flash hider is not a Jungle Carbine hider. There are no pins through it
at the top. There is a set screw holding it on from the right side. When the
screw is removed the hider is not loose and I can't budge it by hand, even
applying considerable force. My friend wondered if it is a Bren gun hider as
he recalls from his Militia days that the hiders were held on to them by a
screw also? I have no idea.

The barrel muzzle end is visible-it has not been lathe crowned. The example
held by Milarm is exactly the same- no lathe crowning, just a flat cut off.
The bore is in mint shape. The bolt head face is smooth and new looking with
no black ring.

There are no apparent lightening cuts on the barrel or receiver.

A riddle inside of an enigma inside etc etc.

Your help would be much appreciated! Better pics may be forthcoming when I
can arrange them.

Sincerely,

Tom
 
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