"Police" models overhyped?

mr00jimbo

mr00jimbo

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I was looking at 10FP models and 700P models for the helluvit. I was toying with the idea of gettin' a .223 or .308 caliber black bolt rifle for accurate plinking. I have a 30-06 to venture into the woods with for 4 legged critters.

Anyhoo, i see some models that go for more than the others just because they are labelled police, tactical, or varmint.
For example; is a Tikka T3 varmint, in REAL world conditions, worth the premium over just a standard T3? i mean sure it might have some fancier stuff and a heavier barrel, but what's that mean when accuracy is concerned?
Ditto with the 10FP vs regular savages or the 700P vs traditional Remington 700 rifles?

Let's put it this way; say, in a real police situation, do you think if a cop was issued a T3 lite to shoot with compared to a 700P, he/she would be disadvantaged severely?
 
Back up here for a minute, you think the cost is expensive. Take for example Savage 10FP McMillan, get a regular Savage 10 rifle, then take it to a smith and have him install a heavy barrel and then fit it into a McMillan A3 stock, you can bet it will cost more then buying it with the stock and barrel already there fromt he factory, on the contrary, it is a better value to buy them already done then have it done after.
 
Of course marketing plays a part. You mention wanting a "black bolt rifle". Black and matte won't make a rifle shoot better. Just decide if the set of components in a given model of a rifle are worth paying for. An HS stock with aluminum bedding block may be a better stock than an injection moulded one. Costs more, too.
 
mr00jimbo said:
Let's put it this way; say, in a real police situation, do you think if a cop was issued a T3 lite to shoot with compared to a 700P, he/she would be disadvantaged severely?
Click to expand...

Let's put it another way - When a scoped rifle is called upon in real world police tactical situations , the marksman might be required to shoot at a relatively small target under great stress. This one shot will probably involve the life of the bad guy and the lives of hostages. There are no sighters, that one shot must be perfect. Typically the range will be short, and once cleared to shoot, the rifleman may have to make the shot very quickly, while being conscious of what lies behind his target. Perhaps the shot will be made at a partially obscured moving target, perhaps in poor weather, or perhaps in the dark.

Now, what value should be placed on that rifle? If I was going to write the spec for a rifle to be used in police tactical situations, you can bet it would cost a lot more than a T3.
 
I would pay the money for the police model. Most companies have different methods for of assembly and multiple safty/reliability checks in place at their factorys specifically for their "POLICE" line of weapons. Alot of these checks are not completed on any of there civvy weapons. Remington is one forsure.
 
"...just because they are labelled police, tactical..." Marketing for those for sure. Not so much for a varmint rifle. The varmint rifle's heavier barrel add to the cost without just being cosmetic. 'Police' and 'Tactical' are marketing terms.
 
Boomer said:
Now, what value should be placed on that rifle? If I was going to write the spec for a rifle to be used in police tactical situations, you can bet it would cost a lot more than a T3.
Click to expand...

That depends on who's approving budgets....
'Been to police sniper shoots and witnessed agencies using everything from high end AI rifles with top dollar optics to "off the shelf" 700's with optics you could buy at Bass Pro...
Surprisingly... or not, the guys with the "off the shelf" 700's took several top spots in the competition.
 
something out of 93 confermed kills hatcock said about a training prgram he developed in the lator years if i recall it was it'd doesn't matter what you shoot as long as it has a heavy barrel
 
Basically the Police models are a varmint gun with a matte finish and a more ergonomic synthetic stock. The matte finishes are actually cheaper to apply then a polished finish, so that doesn't add to any higher cost. Just the cost of the stock, and the labelling on the gun. Say, 80% marketing hype, and 20% actual improvement. Works great with gun guys, because we love gadgets and anything we think might give us an edge. - dan
 
I've shot a bunch of these "police/tactical" guns and they are nice. Marketing = yes. Fully bedded gun, handfit bolt (blueprinted?) - match quality/high quality barrels?? I don't think so (some options = yes on some guns but rarely have I ran into one that is a yes on all). They are no AWP nor are they that rugged. The remington 700 "tactical" was nice and hey put a good shooter behind it and you can still shoot loonies at 150m. I've come to the conclusion (WARNING: MY OPINION) that tac-drivers cost about 5k (minimum) to get super consistent and reliable.

Right now I'm waiting to hear back from altac rifles on the preformance of a surgeon action w/us marine barrel (can't remember the manu.) in .300 win mag. I've heard that the 20 minute rail works great for .300 wm but is too shallow for the .338 lapua (need 40 minute) just the action and barrel and fitting will cost over $2200, never mind the stock and optics. (i.e. another 2500 AT LEAST!).

I did shoot that T3 Tactical and of almost all the off-the-shelf-sniper guns it definatley did shoot well and everything from trigger pull to balance and accuracy was "nice". But the guarantee is 1" or smaller or it doesn't ship. If badguy #1 has his head against yours and mr. police tactical is shooting him in the noggan do you really want 1" MOA or would you settle for 1/2" MOA? so that means if it is an open ground shot with a hard to predict wind at 150m he could be with a margin of bullet/gun error of oh lets say 2.5" on a cold barrel shot? that could be your noggan instead! course most sharpshooters would probably wait for their window instead of that shot.... but who knows. I'm an uneducated fool that has a wife that says I spend WAY to much money on guns.... and in my opinion not enough :)

my ramblings......
 
You can lower the trigger more on the 10pf than the other Savage models - I believe it goes 1 or 1.5 pounds lighter.
 
My understanding of the whole LE branding comes from liability.

Pro's procuring gear have certain performance requirements to meet as set by 'governing' bodies. Since many procuring agents are not gun loonies like most of us and for CYB (cover your butt), they will procure gear that a factory has deemed suitable for LE/pro use.

Same goes for ammo. The ammo company is put on the hook for meeting certain functioning and accuracy requirements. Thus if either fail, we got a scape goat.

Rarely, is any LE model based on a US factory and some Euro rifles 'magic' or special. From the many I have seen, they are just run of the mill rifles in approved aftermarket stocks. But because the factory continues to carry some risk, they can charge more. Plus, it fits the wannabe market which EXPECTS to pay more.

Bottom line is that a police officer needing a 223 or 308 will be more then adequately served by a Stevens 200 in either cal. Even with the orig trigger (lightened), it can fulfill any first shot needs. Mechanically, the rifles are more the accurate enough (once bedded of course).

Will any of these very inexpensive rifles be called into service? Not a hope as they fail other requirements some important, some not so.

Bureaucrats handle the purchasing so any item must have a CYB clause. Many have no idea what a rifle is let alone the suitleties that we fuss over. Establish a set of requirements (mostly set by the actual end users, sometimes not), let factories build to these specs, buy them, pass the responsibility and risk to the factories.

If buying a factory prepped rifles is more economical then piecing together from the aftermarket, go for it. However, you will always be dealing with a factory pipe which may or may not be all that good (by our standards) but more then sufficient to serve any professional end user.

Jerry
 
If you are looking for an accurate matte black rifle for accurate plinking, there are a variety to choose from. I suspect that just about any would serve the purpose, and don't think that the make matters much unless you have a personal preference. YOu could have a lot of less expensive fun with something in .223 with a quick twist barrel.
Personally, I don't really care what the rifle looks like. Just zeroed a put together .308 rifle. Doggy Rem. 78 (lower cost 700) action from a used rifle; second hand wooden across-the-course National Match 40X stock, well bedded; Mike Rock barrel acquired through a trade; old Weaver T series steel target scope; Weaver bases, Millet rings; Harris bipod, rabbit ear bag. First four shots @200m grouped in 5/8", killing the spotting disc, which I kept as a souvenir. Hornady AMAX 155s, 45 Varget, Fed GM, Lapua FL sized cases. This complete rig cost less than a bare factory rifle, and shoots well enough for any precision match.
 
I know there are a few gunsmiths on this board and I would love to hear their take on things. The gunsmiths I know all say that a factory action that does not benefit greatly from accurizing is definitely the exception - especially Remingtons - "P" models or not. (I'm a big fan of Remington Actions) I would also love to hear from people that own bore scopes to give their commentary on factory varmint/police barrels. I know the video on Lilja's site is pretty dramatic ...6mmbr[dot]com/f/Lilja_BoreScope_vid.wmv

What I do know is I have yet to see anyone shooting an off-the-shelf factory rifle ever take home tinsel at any of the F-class or ISSF maches I've been to. Not even close. They are definitely accurate enough for the jobs they were intended to do, but, well, I have a plain old completely stock remington 700 in 30-06... With factory ammo it groups about an 1.25 inches. It cost me about $700. It typically takes me more than 5 times that amount of money to build guns that will consistently shoot .25" groups at a hundred meters. Is that worth it? Depends what you want it for.

I think you have to like how they look as well as how they shoot, but as to their value, that is something only you can answer
 
of course you pay more for a heavy barrel and tactical stock. and if you know anything bout CONSISTANT long range shooting both those play a huge part. i dont think the police models are overhyped you get what u pay for and in the end what is a couple hundred dollars more for a way cooler looking gun and being able to hit what u aim at.
 
well when you're talking about accuracy from a heavy barrel...is there much diff. between a "tactical", a "police" and a "varmint" really?
 
The "varmints" are generally cheaper, for pretty much the same rifle. That being said, a good rifleman depending on the circumstances will shoot circles around a poor rifleman with x % better gear. Get what fits you and what caliber you can shoot lots of and you'll have a rifle that will serve you well.
 
The US factory barrels are rarely made to 'better' specs whether they are varmint or LE. The exception might, and I do mean might be the custom shop rifles like the Rem 40X.

In general, factory barrels from all manf will shoot MOA or better with good ammo and a bit of rifle tuning whether hunting or heavy. A huge variable is in the quality of the bore/rifling, chamber cut and how those dimensions react to the ammo used.

Then there is the slop and stress in the inletting. The now ever fashionable drop in CNC alum skeleton stocks have some of the worse inletting available. In some cases, WORSE then the much hated/misunderstood tuperware stock.

There is no accuracy benefit from a cold barrel shot no matter the contour of a barrel. That is determined by the physical traits of the bore and the harmonics vs the ammo used.

A heavy barrel offers some benefits when many shots are required in quick succession. There are precious few LE situations where many shots will be required. Odds are there has only been a handful of events where a mag was emptied.

Even a military sniper would/should not need to blast away at the intended target(s). Might lead to a lot of nasties coming their way.

I think the professional is still interested in one shot/one hit. Suppressive fire is better served by those with belt fed guns.

So called tactical stocks have become extremely heavy over the years. With all the new composite materials, that really is a surprise. As far as I know, battering rams are no longer a stock requirement and even if it were, having a spongy recoil pad negates that use.

Some tactical shapes are quite ergonomic. Some not so. Would be better if the stocks allowed for user customization without all those moving parts and all that weight.

Is there some accuracy benefit with these aftermarket stock? NOPE. A modified factory stock or one assembled at home will offer equal if not better field performance due in large part to the ability to fit precisely and comfortably to the end user. It will likely be alot lighter and ironically, have better bedding.

The 'tactical/black' rifle has evolved to look the way it does in part to design and some to fashion.

However, the one thing that doesn't change - match barrels will always shoot better then factory pipes on average. All the money spent on a factory custom shop super tactical LE bad guy getter may offer less real world performance then a rebarreled hunting rifle with a homemade stock.

Jerry
 
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