tactical870
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Buckhorn, Ontario
I had to vote enfield 577. With a little powder fouling they shot even better and there's no lack of power with them....
Poll, best Civil War firearms/ rifles
- Thread starter TGC
- Start date
choices, choices ....
As a military reenactor, I own and shoot a Henry, a '63 Military Rifle and carbine, several 577 Enfields and most of the era handguns.
The Henry has firepower and when I'm flinging lead at the other guy, he isn't returning fire.
The Enfield has range and knockdown power. It drops horses.
The '63s have range, quick-fire capability and knockdown power.
I have no first hand experience with the Spencer, but Custer's boys liked it and resented trading them for Springfield '73s.
Most infantry fighting is up close and personal, so knockdown power is moot.
An anaemic .44 Henry ball at 50 yds is going to wreck your day.
As a military reenactor, I own and shoot a Henry, a '63 Military Rifle and carbine, several 577 Enfields and most of the era handguns.
The Henry has firepower and when I'm flinging lead at the other guy, he isn't returning fire.
The Enfield has range and knockdown power. It drops horses.
The '63s have range, quick-fire capability and knockdown power.
I have no first hand experience with the Spencer, but Custer's boys liked it and resented trading them for Springfield '73s.
Most infantry fighting is up close and personal, so knockdown power is moot.
An anaemic .44 Henry ball at 50 yds is going to wreck your day.
I have shot a Spencer and cocking before each shot is a minor issue. The extractor is questionable but the biggest issue for me would be the relatively fragile magazine on the Henry. I voted Henry originally but would switch to Spencer if I could
cheers mooncoon
Except by deleting all the cookies on my computer, I don't think I can vote again nor do I think that I can go back and edit my choices. My original votes were for a civilian (as in Whitworth) rifle and a Henry but my current thought would stick with the Whitworth and now secondly a Spencer
cheers mooncoon
moon...
yeah, I forgot about that partially open tube. The sand and grit around here would be hell on it.
Thanks for the reminder.
By the by -- why the Whitworth over the Enfield or Springfield, just that it is a target type?
On the Spencer topic, I missed a heavy bbl Buffalo conversion. Not sure if it was a single shot con., or still a repeater. Weighed in at 12 lbs!
Anyway...on with the show!
yeah, I forgot about that partially open tube. The sand and grit around here would be hell on it.
Thanks for the reminder.
By the by -- why the Whitworth over the Enfield or Springfield, just that it is a target type?
On the Spencer topic, I missed a heavy bbl Buffalo conversion. Not sure if it was a single shot con., or still a repeater. Weighed in at 12 lbs!
Anyway...on with the show!
It is not sand and grit that is the main problem on a Henry; you twist the muzzle portion of the barrel and that opens up the magazine cover which is at the muzzle end. Then you remove the spring and follower and drop the shells down and replace all of above. If you were in close combat and the magazine was struck by a sword for example, the dented magazine tube would prevent or make very difficult removing the spring.
Whitworth because I think they were more accurate than the others and my intention would be for a sniping type rifle.
I owned one Spencer which I traded off some time ago but did make a mold for it plus a single shell and jerry built loading set up so I could shoot one shot, reload the shell and fire again etc on the range. The weak point of that gun was the extractor is sort of shaped like a willow leaf and saws down in a vertical motion while extracting the shell. The rim does not last long in that situation and the extractor did not strike me as being particularly strong or effective but that is just an opinion. I have another Spencer now but have not had time to shoot it yet.
cheers mooncoon
Armchair marksmen
There are a lot of uninformed opinions being expressed here by people without the experience to back them up.
Owning several paper Sharps, Enfield MLs and a Henry which get shot regularly, I can assure you that there is no comparison in accuracy out to 200yards and certainly less comparison in rate of fire.
Granted, my Henry is in 44-40, not 44 Henry, but it is mildly loaded with 200 gr bullets/6 grs. Red Dot, so the comparison is valid. Shot with BP lube and BP or 30 gr Pyro pellets, even more so. Powder fouling throughout a match is not a problem.
Single loading a Henry you will still have a higher rate of fire than front stuffing any ML and fitting a cap. Single loading of lever actions is often included as part of a CAS stage event and we've even done it for the entire rifle portion of a stage, just for the novelty.
The mag tube of a Henry is pretty damn solid. The only way I can see it getting deformed is by one hell of a blow such as from a shod hoof or as pointed out, a sword. There not being that many sword waving Officers in an infantry battle, this is unlikely.
It is, however, vulnerable to foreign matter due to the open slot. Unless you're in a swamp or a sandstorm, it's more of an imagined problem.
The follower of a Henry is drawn up, compressing the spring in the nose cap which is then swung to the side. Snapping it shut and letting the follower strike loaded rounds is a mistake. I've been present twice when it happened, causing three rounds to detonate! The mag tube is destroyed and a lot of debris goes flying.
The 'cigar cutter' of a paper Sharps is indeed sharp enough to shear off the end of a paper cartridge, exposing the powder. A better approach is to make cartridges of the correct chamber length which avoids powder spillage and the resultant flash. The cap will burn through the base if made from onion skin or other lightweight paper.
Berdan's 'Sharpshooters' did great slaughter as skirmishers with their '59s and '63s. They tried to avoid capture as they were roughly treated as 'assasins' and their rifles highly prized. Breechblocks were removed and discarded before capture if at all possible.
There are a lot of uninformed opinions being expressed here by people without the experience to back them up.
Owning several paper Sharps, Enfield MLs and a Henry which get shot regularly, I can assure you that there is no comparison in accuracy out to 200yards and certainly less comparison in rate of fire.
Granted, my Henry is in 44-40, not 44 Henry, but it is mildly loaded with 200 gr bullets/6 grs. Red Dot, so the comparison is valid. Shot with BP lube and BP or 30 gr Pyro pellets, even more so. Powder fouling throughout a match is not a problem.
Single loading a Henry you will still have a higher rate of fire than front stuffing any ML and fitting a cap. Single loading of lever actions is often included as part of a CAS stage event and we've even done it for the entire rifle portion of a stage, just for the novelty.
The mag tube of a Henry is pretty damn solid. The only way I can see it getting deformed is by one hell of a blow such as from a shod hoof or as pointed out, a sword. There not being that many sword waving Officers in an infantry battle, this is unlikely.
It is, however, vulnerable to foreign matter due to the open slot. Unless you're in a swamp or a sandstorm, it's more of an imagined problem.
The follower of a Henry is drawn up, compressing the spring in the nose cap which is then swung to the side. Snapping it shut and letting the follower strike loaded rounds is a mistake. I've been present twice when it happened, causing three rounds to detonate! The mag tube is destroyed and a lot of debris goes flying.
The 'cigar cutter' of a paper Sharps is indeed sharp enough to shear off the end of a paper cartridge, exposing the powder. A better approach is to make cartridges of the correct chamber length which avoids powder spillage and the resultant flash. The cap will burn through the base if made from onion skin or other lightweight paper.
Berdan's 'Sharpshooters' did great slaughter as skirmishers with their '59s and '63s. They tried to avoid capture as they were roughly treated as 'assasins' and their rifles highly prized. Breechblocks were removed and discarded before capture if at all possible.
Are you talking about the original Henry or the reproduction ones? The originals that I have seen (but not had in my hot little hands) had a distinct separate piece at the muzzle ie the muzzle of the octagon barrel appeared to have been turned round then a cylinder with an octagon outside slid over it and the end of the magazine, in my memory, was attached to that. I don't recall seeing any loading port on the side of the guns. I also don't recall seeing any follower exposed to the outside.
I can certainly see snapping a spring down on the cartridges in the heat of battle being a common occurrence although I also suspect the effects would have been mitigated often by having a full mag to snap on and therefore less of a blow.
I recently read the diary of Jonas Gorgas of Civil War fame. One thing that struck me was how miserable and wet the south appeared to be during the fall through early summer. I suspect that fighting during that time would have had some similarities to fighting in a swamp.
cheers mooncoon
The Henry
The Henry replicas are an authentic copy of the originals in all respects, to the best of my knowledge and according to my reference books.
The "distinct separate piece at the muzzle" you are referring to is the side-swinging nose cap where the brass follower pushes the mag spring, compressing it.
The barrel muzzle end is indeed round for the length of the nose cap assembly.
Watch "Dances With Wolves" and see Kostner waving his Henry around with the follower clearly visible at the bottom of the magazine, indicating that it is unloaded. This is the piece which causes detonations if carelessly allowed to drop on top of loaded rounds.
I don't recall if the movie makers of "Lonesome Dove" spared Capt. Call and Gus this embarrassment.
Now, the mag follower, the main fault of the Henry. It's a heavy chunk of brass.
On one occasion, I had supervised the loading of a Henry with 10 rds. The shooter snapped the nose cap shut as he laid the rifle on the bench, detonating three rounds. His wrist was shot full of fragments and the mag tube splayed open like a banana.
On the second occasion, the shooter dropped 5 rds into the mag during a stage and slapped shut the nose cap, sending it down the tube like a runaway elevator. Again, three rds detonated, but the blast went down range as he had the butt on the ground during the reloading.
The mag tube was similarly splayed. I found out later that it can be restored by careful hammering around a mandrel.
In both cases, an ammo check revealed NO high primers in remaining rds., all loaded with RNFP bullets. Henry users are advised to shoot hard shell primers.
Such detonations were also known in the era of the .44 Henry rimfire due to the sensitivity of the fulminate priming compound.
The follower also gets shooters into trouble when they stop it with their hands, thereby preventing feeding. One learns to move one's hand or arch the support hand to allow it's passage.
After the Civil War, the Henry patent rights were purchased by a consortium, the main principle being Oliver Winchester, a Connecticut shirt maker. He retained Benjamin Tyler Henry, hired mechanic Nelson King and set them to work on the first rifle to bear the Winchester name - the '66.
This was marketed as "The Improved Henry", which is what it was, taking advantage of the established reputation of the Henry. Improvements were the tube magazine common to all lever actions thereafter and the King side loading gate in the receiver, also part of every lever action rifle since.
It all other respects, it was a Henry, including the Henry .44 Flat cartridge chambering. The iron framed successor of the '66, the '73, was chambered in the centre fire .44 WCF, known today as the .44-40.
Winchester honoured Henry by stamping the 'H' head stamp on their .22 ammo for years. They may still be doing so.
The open mag tube may let in foreign matter, but it has the advantage of also letting it out! I got my '66 wet in a down pour and it was a bugger to dry the mag tube, requiring a screw driver to remove the end cap.
With a Henry, you would simply have drawn up the spring into the nose cap and wiped out the water with your shirt tail or bandana. A trained soldier always knows how to service his rifle in the field and get around it's deficiencies.
Sharps rifle shooters were known to pour water on a fouling seized breechblock or urinate on it. Must have taken a cool soldier to make water in the heat of combat!
The Henry replicas are an authentic copy of the originals in all respects, to the best of my knowledge and according to my reference books.
The "distinct separate piece at the muzzle" you are referring to is the side-swinging nose cap where the brass follower pushes the mag spring, compressing it.
The barrel muzzle end is indeed round for the length of the nose cap assembly.
Watch "Dances With Wolves" and see Kostner waving his Henry around with the follower clearly visible at the bottom of the magazine, indicating that it is unloaded. This is the piece which causes detonations if carelessly allowed to drop on top of loaded rounds.
I don't recall if the movie makers of "Lonesome Dove" spared Capt. Call and Gus this embarrassment.
Now, the mag follower, the main fault of the Henry. It's a heavy chunk of brass.
On one occasion, I had supervised the loading of a Henry with 10 rds. The shooter snapped the nose cap shut as he laid the rifle on the bench, detonating three rounds. His wrist was shot full of fragments and the mag tube splayed open like a banana.
On the second occasion, the shooter dropped 5 rds into the mag during a stage and slapped shut the nose cap, sending it down the tube like a runaway elevator. Again, three rds detonated, but the blast went down range as he had the butt on the ground during the reloading.
The mag tube was similarly splayed. I found out later that it can be restored by careful hammering around a mandrel.
In both cases, an ammo check revealed NO high primers in remaining rds., all loaded with RNFP bullets. Henry users are advised to shoot hard shell primers.
Such detonations were also known in the era of the .44 Henry rimfire due to the sensitivity of the fulminate priming compound.
The follower also gets shooters into trouble when they stop it with their hands, thereby preventing feeding. One learns to move one's hand or arch the support hand to allow it's passage.
After the Civil War, the Henry patent rights were purchased by a consortium, the main principle being Oliver Winchester, a Connecticut shirt maker. He retained Benjamin Tyler Henry, hired mechanic Nelson King and set them to work on the first rifle to bear the Winchester name - the '66.
This was marketed as "The Improved Henry", which is what it was, taking advantage of the established reputation of the Henry. Improvements were the tube magazine common to all lever actions thereafter and the King side loading gate in the receiver, also part of every lever action rifle since.
It all other respects, it was a Henry, including the Henry .44 Flat cartridge chambering. The iron framed successor of the '66, the '73, was chambered in the centre fire .44 WCF, known today as the .44-40.
Winchester honoured Henry by stamping the 'H' head stamp on their .22 ammo for years. They may still be doing so.
The open mag tube may let in foreign matter, but it has the advantage of also letting it out! I got my '66 wet in a down pour and it was a bugger to dry the mag tube, requiring a screw driver to remove the end cap.
With a Henry, you would simply have drawn up the spring into the nose cap and wiped out the water with your shirt tail or bandana. A trained soldier always knows how to service his rifle in the field and get around it's deficiencies.
Sharps rifle shooters were known to pour water on a fouling seized breechblock or urinate on it. Must have taken a cool soldier to make water in the heat of combat!
