Poor Mans Double

conor_90

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So I’ve been eyeing up side by side slug guns for a while. Most are in the 2500-3000 range and those I’ve checked on are regulated with lasers and not a specific load.

I’ve also been pondering a BRNO sidelock as a “poor man’s double”

Anyone in Canada who could regulate such a gun with a specific load (probably score 1 1/8 oz)? Would it cost less than 1500 dollars? I’ve seen some American guys online quote ~ 500 for this job but that seems low
 
What exactly are you hoping to accomplish with it? I doubt that you'll find anyone to regulate a shotgun to your desired load for anything resembling reasonable money. I guess the real question is, how accurate does it have to be?
 
You want the left barrel to print left of the aim point and the right to print right of the aim point. A well regulated double will put them a caliber width apart at a given distance. I will say the barrels should be further apart at the muzzle then most SXS shotguns.

I’d get a book on building a double rifle and figure it out for yourself that’s the only way to do it cheaply.
 
You want the left barrel to print left of the aim point and the right to print right of the aim point. A well regulated double will put them a caliber width apart at a given distance. I will say the barrels should be further apart at the muzzle then most SXS shotguns.

I’d get a book on building a double rifle and figure it out for yourself that’s the only way to do it cheaply.

If memory serves a gent named Brown wrote a book on converting double shotguns to double rifles. - dan
 
I have always considered a good pump shotgun as a poor mans double... it will do more for less $ ...
 
I get it. Perhaps a modern version of a paradox gun, could have the chokes rifled. Hmm. - dan

There were smooth bores that were regulated for what we now call pumpkin ball slugs and other various early slugs. And I think I know of one guy who did the same in the modern era what lives in Africa. I seen a sxs slug gun last night I will try to find it again.


Found it idk how well it will shoot though. http://https://store.prophetriver.com/used-baikal-12ga-24-725-polish-express-slug-gun-smooth-bore-walnut-stock-case-colored-receiver-blued-ejectors-c-w-weaver-k3-60c-plex-reticle/
 
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If you look at the muzzles of any decent quality side by side double shotgun that hasn’t been shortened you will see that the muzzles adjoin at the muzzle ends. Whats more, where they abut they meet with a small flat surface on each. This flat joining surface is carefully set during the regulating process to ensure that both barrels deliver their regulating load to the same point of impact at a specific distance, normally 40 yards in US and GB. So it looks like the barrels converge and the shot charges would cross a short distance from the muzzles. But they don’t. Why? Because each barrel , not being free floating, recoils away from the solid surface of the other barrel and this toe in is carefully set to counteract that. 50, 100, 150, 200 years ago this was set by trial and error, actually shooting many regulating shots with the specific preferred load. Lesser quality ‘hardware store’ guns didn’t receive this much attention and good regulation was not a feature on cheap guns, then or now. Modern guns by major manufacturers are regulated by laser today but the tubes still ‘kiss’ at the muzzle.there are also a few modern guns, mostly very expensive target models, on which the barrels are not joined over most of their length except for a patented adjustable regulating device at the muzzle that actually can slightly bend the tube or tubes.
Your barrels are currently joined full length by the top and bottom ribs, usually with soft solder although a very few modern machine made guns from large companies like Beretta and Browning use automated brazing and laser alignment on some guns. To change this careful regulation on a conventional soft soldered gun is theoretically possible but it’s a very frustrating slow trial and error process with a good chance of ruining the gun forever. Your gun, your choice, good luck.
 
If you look at the muzzles of any decent quality side by side double shotgun that hasn’t been shortened you will see that the muzzles adjoin at the muzzle ends. Whats more, where they abut they meet with a small flat surface on each. This flat joining surface is carefully set during the regulating process to ensure that both barrels deliver their regulating load to the same point of impact at a specific distance, normally 40 yards in US and GB. So it looks like the barrels converge and the shot charges would cross a short distance from the muzzles. But they don’t. Why? Because each barrel , not being free floating, recoils away from the solid surface of the other barrel and this toe in is carefully set to counteract that. 50, 100, 150, 200 years ago this was set by trial and error, actually shooting many regulating shots with the specific preferred load. Lesser quality ‘hardware store’ guns didn’t receive this much attention and good regulation was not a feature on cheap guns, then or now. Modern guns by major manufacturers are regulated by laser today but the tubes still ‘kiss’ at the muzzle.there are also a few modern guns, mostly very expensive target models, on which the barrels are not joined over most of their length except for a patented adjustable regulating device at the muzzle that actually can slightly bend the tube or tubes.
Your barrels are currently joined full length by the top and bottom ribs, usually with soft solder although a very few modern machine made guns from large companies like Beretta and Browning use automated brazing and laser alignment on some guns. To change this careful regulation on a conventional soft soldered gun is theoretically possible but it’s a very frustrating slow trial and error process with a good chance of ruining the gun forever. Your gun, your choice, good luck.

Idk about shotguns but if you regulate a double rifle so they hit the same point of aim at a given distance they will cross at some point meaning the left barrel will it to the right and the right barrel will hit to the left. Ideally you want a double rifle to hit a calibers width apart from point of aim left barrel to the left and right barrel to the right. Some of the more commercial(working man’s doubles you will commonly see PH’s carry) makers of double rifle makers have switched the laser regulating while companies like holland and holland still do it by hand I believe.
 
So it might be worth a shot to take a gamble on the rfm or similar that are laser regulated it seems? I don’t understand how that corresponds to a specific load but that doesn’t mean much

I handled an rfm with a paradox barrel and a smooth bore barrel at 24 inches. It didn’t have iron sights though, I was quite fluid at the time and probably would have taken it home if it did.

For the model with sights and 2 paradox or smooth barrels I was quoted $4300.00. Quite a difference in price and entering over under euro double rifle territory
 
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The “goal” is to have something like this:

http://www.marrakai-adventure.com.au/H_ShotgunBuff.html

Or rather to see if it financially feasible, or possible to do in this country.


I had a huglu over under with battue sights that would easily do pie plate off hand at 50 yards. A baikal double that would do the same. Never took to the baikal but didn’t realize how lucky I was with the huglu.

A side by side “double” that could use ammo from Canadian tire and cost less than 2k would be pretty cool imo…

Not to mention the shot and ball gun aspect; grouse and deer from the same gun.

I’ve spent a lot of hours looking at pictures of shot and ball guns on guns international on my phone. More than I would like to admit. A gun you could slap a 2 3/4 score slug (of which I have a bunch) into and bang away at the range with would be pretty cool.

With all the overbuilt doubles with cheek pieces in the country for pennies and the market for slug guns for controlled hunts and bear defence it just seems natural
 
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The “goal” is to have something like this:

http://www.marrakai-adventure.com.au/H_ShotgunBuff.html

Or rather to see if it financially feasible, or possible to do in this country.


I had a huglu over under with battue sights that would easily do pie plate off hand at 50 yards. A baikal double that would do the same. Never took to the baikal but didn’t realize how lucky I was with the huglu.

A side by side “double” that could use ammo from Canadian tire and cost less than 2k would be pretty cool imo…

Not to mention the shot and ball gun aspect; grouse and deer from the same gun.

I’ve spent a lot of hours looking at pictures of shot and ball guns on guns international on my phone. More than I would like to admit. A gun you could slap a 2 3/4 score slug (of which I have a bunch) into and bang away at the range with would be pretty cool.

With all the overbuilt doubles with cheek pieces in the country for pennies and the market for slug guns for controlled hunts and bear defence it just seems natural

Realistically a pie plate at 50 is a dead deer bear moose. With a double you don’t want bit barrels shooting into the same place. As for any and all ammo being able to be used that depends on bullet weight and velocity more then anything. personally I’d go for home loaded slugs better quality and you have more control. My norinco jw2000 with 12 inch barrels does about pie plate at 50 or so yards with Winchester slugs(15 pack from crappy tire).

Looks like I might be forced to using a shotgun for bear this year I’m going to try some round ball slugs “mexican matched” into target shells have a few to choose from so should find one that puts them where I need them.
 
Well - Using foster-style slugs out of a smooth bore is a crap shoot to begin with. I did several tests years ago on various slugs - and got wild variations in group size from gun to gun, and slug to slug. So, getting a double barrel to regulate could easily amount to a wild goose chase. I believe that a trial and error approach with more commonly available guns would be beneficial. I'm going to do this with the Brno ZH O/U's as they are equipped with iron sights and provision to mount a scope. Last time I did this, the cheapo Winchester value pack slugs tended to perform the best in many of my shotguns.
 
Score slugs are attached wad slugs ala brennekes; I have had good accuracy from them in both rifles and smooth barrels
 
Idk about shotguns but if you regulate a double rifle so they hit the same point of aim at a given distance they will cross at some point meaning the left barrel will it to the right and the right barrel will hit to the left. Ideally you want a double rifle to hit a calibers width apart from point of aim left barrel to the left and right barrel to the right. Some of the more commercial(working man’s doubles you will commonly see PH’s carry) makers of double rifle makers have switched the laser regulating while companies like holland and holland still do it by hand I believe.

A double rifle is a different proposition than a double shotgun. The shotgun is working within a very limited effective range, close to the gun. Depending on the chokes and the target this will only be from about 15-20 yards to 40-50 yards. Closer and you mangle your meat, farther and you cripple and lose too many birds. The rifle is expected to be effective out to a much greater range, sometimes two, three or more times as far and they are expected to be much more precise. All double rifles have been and still are regulated to put a specific load fired from both barrels into a composite group, on point of aim, at a distance specified or set by the gun manufacturer and this applies only with that one load. Closer than the regulating distance, which will vary by caliber and the preference of the manufacturer, and the left and right barrel hits will be separated, by the muzzle centre distance at the muzzle down to complete convergence at the regulating distance where they will cross and start increasingly separating again as the target distance increases. This traditionally is a very time consuming trial and error process that can involve many trips back to the shop for adjustment and subsequent retesting for effect. It works, but the shooting technique must be precisely consistent shot to shot. For that one load in that one rifle. Change any parameter of that ammunition, bullet weight, bullet profile, bullet composition, powder type, velocity, pressure, different shooter, different techniques and you’ll be starting all over. If you are looking for composite groups the size of your palm in a .577 at 50 yards to pot an elephant the challenge is completely different than for a 7mm rifle for hunting deer, goats and sheep at three or four times that distance.
Careful experimenting with different factory loads, different reloading combinations will allow an owner to tailor his ammunition to his specific double rifle within limits. As a basic guide, heavier bullets normally print higher at the regulated distance and will frequently shoot apart as well and this varies by weight. Slower velocities usually result in converging barrel impacts, higher velocities spread the velocity impacts horizontally. New double rifles regulated for modern readily available ammo can be very accurate with the specified ammo, vintage guns can be a near endless source of experimentation and frustration because of the lack of original ammo or the correct components to make your own.
 
Why do you keep doing this to me

All part of a scheme to live vicariously through you while I subsist off of student loans, tax returns and 4 months of consulting work a year obviously

I seen a sxs slug gun last night I will try to find it again.


Found it idk how well it will shoot though. http://https://store.prophetriver.co...-plex-reticle/

The link doesn’t work; any chance you could try again or give the name so I can search for it on PR?


Edit:

https://store.prophetriver.com/used...lued-ejectors-c-w-weaver-k3-60c-plex-reticle/

Not sure if this is homebrew or a factory option.

In discussion with some Germans on another board I found out it was not uncommon in the eastern bloc for hunters to scope the kind of East German side by sides we see at intersurplus and sight in one barrel at “distance” as they were not regulated for slugs. I wonder if that is what is going on here.

I do know current Russian laws require a long period of shotgun ownership before rifles are allowed, so I imagine they have a variety of slug guns available.
 
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All part of a scheme to live vicariously through you while I subsist off of student loans, tax returns and 4 months of consulting work a year obviously



The link doesn’t work; any chance you could try again or give the name so I can search for it on PR?


Edit:

https://store.prophetriver.com/used...lued-ejectors-c-w-weaver-k3-60c-plex-reticle/

Not sure if this is homebrew or a factory option.

In discussion with some Germans on another board I found out it was not uncommon in the eastern bloc for hunters to scope the kind of East German side by sides we see at intersurplus and sight in one barrel at “distance” as they were not regulated for slugs. I wonder if that is what is going on here.

I do know current Russian laws require a long period of shotgun ownership before rifles are allowed, so I imagine they have a variety of slug guns available.

It was a baikal 725 polish express. https://store.prophetriver.com/used...lued-ejectors-c-w-weaver-k3-60c-plex-reticle/
 
A double rifle is a different proposition than a double shotgun. The shotgun is working within a very limited effective range, close to the gun. Depending on the chokes and the target this will only be from about 15-20 yards to 40-50 yards. Closer and you mangle your meat, farther and you cripple and lose too many birds. The rifle is expected to be effective out to a much greater range, sometimes two, three or more times as far and they are expected to be much more precise. All double rifles have been and still are regulated to put a specific load fired from both barrels into a composite group, on point of aim, at a distance specified or set by the gun manufacturer and this applies only with that one load. Closer than the regulating distance, which will vary by caliber and the preference of the manufacturer, and the left and right barrel hits will be separated, by the muzzle centre distance at the muzzle down to complete convergence at the regulating distance where they will cross and start increasingly separating again as the target distance increases. This traditionally is a very time consuming trial and error process that can involve many trips back to the shop for adjustment and subsequent retesting for effect. It works, but the shooting technique must be precisely consistent shot to shot. For that one load in that one rifle. Change any parameter of that ammunition, bullet weight, bullet profile, bullet composition, powder type, velocity, pressure, different shooter, different techniques and you’ll be starting all over. If you are looking for composite groups the size of your palm in a .577 at 50 yards to pot an elephant the challenge is completely different than for a 7mm rifle for hunting deer, goats and sheep at three or four times that distance.
Careful experimenting with different factory loads, different reloading combinations will allow an owner to tailor his ammunition to his specific double rifle within limits. As a basic guide, heavier bullets normally print higher at the regulated distance and will frequently shoot apart as well and this varies by weight. Slower velocities usually result in converging barrel impacts, higher velocities spread the velocity impacts horizontally. New double rifles regulated for modern readily available ammo can be very accurate with the specified ammo, vintage guns can be a near endless source of experimentation and frustration because of the lack of original ammo or the correct components to make your own.

The OP is trying to get a sxs shotgun to perform like a double rifle with slugs so that is what I was getting at.
 
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