Possible Pinned PMAG Supplier To Canada...!!!
- Thread starter kenjuudo
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That is what I have said to a number of people...but no one believes it. The great Magpul
Those molds wouldn't be in a factory somewhere in China close to their Asian offices???
canucklehead
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Injection molds are PRICEY. A family member does injection molding work, and a single large (2 feet x 3 feet) mold produced here was quoted at $300,000. In China, the same mold will cost less than $60,000.
Grab A Mop, Or Clear The Deck...
I get that our market is a small one, and I'm not looking to "pick on" anyone, but there's a certain arrogance (for lack of a better word) prevalent in the attitudes of many of our importers and retailers here in Canada (and not just the ones present for this discussion). It's almost as if, because they are few and supply products for which there is a relatively high demand (albeit a narrow audience creating that demand), and know slightly more about the state of the industry than the rest of us might, that they're somehow special...
To those of us with open wallets... pick up the phone and make a few calls... ask some simple questions about how to import this or that item, spend a little bit on long distance fees and you will be amazed at what you can learn. None of what these businesses do is magic, or complicated. It may be an encumbered process, yes, but not a difficult one. Every business faces challenges in servicing their customers, the difference is how they handle themselves in the process.
Do our importers provide a service...? undoubtedly yes, they do... could they be doing a better job servicing their customers? yes... they could. Do we fully understand in every case every obstacle that they face in doing that job? no... but should we have to? certainly not. We didn't ask them to go into business, and if they won't do the work, someone else absolutely will... nature (and free markets) abhor a vacuum and will always rush to fill one.
Small market or no, we (the customer) needn't simply accept the company line... what we must do is bare the costs that our importers incur, plus a reasonable profit... but they themselves are not profits... they are not superheroes and they do not posses unobtainable knowledge, they've just made the relatively small effort necessary to learn what is necessary to do their work.
I'm troubled by the suggestion that importers "listened" to their customers saying that they wouldn't pay $40 for a $15 PMAG and so it's not worth their time and effort to bring them in... At the same time, we have a growing list of those same customers right here suggesting that they WOULD pay $40, or more... and we have examples of other - in this case $12.95 US CProducts magazines - being sold by those same importers for... $39.99... which is pretty damn close to $40 in my books... so what's the difference, and why the "complaining" now about how PMAGS wouldn't make good business sense because the market wouldn't accept the required pricing...!?
Instead of the importers trying to co-opt whatever the guys at GMS might try to do by "saving the day" with established permits, or offering vague and mysterious statements about what might be going on in Canada re: alternate magazine options under development in some vague, cloaked in secrecy skunkworks somewhere... and generally appearing to be more interested in protecting territory than servicing the market... why not let's hear some innovative solutions instead of road blocks followed by self-important mumbo-jumbo presented without substantiation...?!
I say this having lived in both the US and in Canada, and having purchased firearms related products in both countries... and, I should add, with all due respect that I can muster, but my sense is this: The retail firearms community in Canada is so small as to be almost incestuous... everybody knows everybody else among the dealers / importers... it's a tight club, and a lot of them often act like it... which imnsho leads to a much inflated sense of relative importance ("if you don't like it, tough" is often the answer)... Little fish in an even smaller pond, and the attitudes we're forced to endure would have them eaten whole if they were doing business anywhere else but here.
And so you might be asking yourself something like "what gives this d*ck the right to say these things...?!", to which my response would be, what gives you the right to ask that question...? We're your customers, and without us, you wouldn't exist... Importers will come and go, but there will always be customers, and someone else out there willing to do it better to buy from.
The market is ripe... pick it carefully or it just might spoil... or be picked clean by someone else who innovates, contemplates and serves. Check out the positive responses to Kodiak Outpost's "So, What Do You Guys Want?" thread under "Dealer Forums"... if they were listed on the stock exchange I'd be buying their index. Or have a look at the comment in the "German 308" thread in the "Ammo" forum where it's suggested that the complaints of customers (repeatedly) looking for product "should be required reading for all Canadian importers"... And don't give us any crap about "we can't get the stuff so what would you have us do...?!" What we'd have you do is solve the problem... innovate... do the job you signed on for, and make fair money in the process... no one here will begrudge you that... but enough with the "we can't and here's why" tales of misery and woe and long recountings of how tough it is out there... And no, it's not up to me to "do it if it's so easy"... I have a job, which I'm expected to do... just like we expect you to do yours.
That's plenty said, flame away...
I get that our market is a small one, and I'm not looking to "pick on" anyone, but there's a certain arrogance (for lack of a better word) prevalent in the attitudes of many of our importers and retailers here in Canada (and not just the ones present for this discussion). It's almost as if, because they are few and supply products for which there is a relatively high demand (albeit a narrow audience creating that demand), and know slightly more about the state of the industry than the rest of us might, that they're somehow special...
To those of us with open wallets... pick up the phone and make a few calls... ask some simple questions about how to import this or that item, spend a little bit on long distance fees and you will be amazed at what you can learn. None of what these businesses do is magic, or complicated. It may be an encumbered process, yes, but not a difficult one. Every business faces challenges in servicing their customers, the difference is how they handle themselves in the process.
Do our importers provide a service...? undoubtedly yes, they do... could they be doing a better job servicing their customers? yes... they could. Do we fully understand in every case every obstacle that they face in doing that job? no... but should we have to? certainly not. We didn't ask them to go into business, and if they won't do the work, someone else absolutely will... nature (and free markets) abhor a vacuum and will always rush to fill one.
Small market or no, we (the customer) needn't simply accept the company line... what we must do is bare the costs that our importers incur, plus a reasonable profit... but they themselves are not profits... they are not superheroes and they do not posses unobtainable knowledge, they've just made the relatively small effort necessary to learn what is necessary to do their work.
I'm troubled by the suggestion that importers "listened" to their customers saying that they wouldn't pay $40 for a $15 PMAG and so it's not worth their time and effort to bring them in... At the same time, we have a growing list of those same customers right here suggesting that they WOULD pay $40, or more... and we have examples of other - in this case $12.95 US CProducts magazines - being sold by those same importers for... $39.99... which is pretty damn close to $40 in my books... so what's the difference, and why the "complaining" now about how PMAGS wouldn't make good business sense because the market wouldn't accept the required pricing...!?
Instead of the importers trying to co-opt whatever the guys at GMS might try to do by "saving the day" with established permits, or offering vague and mysterious statements about what might be going on in Canada re: alternate magazine options under development in some vague, cloaked in secrecy skunkworks somewhere... and generally appearing to be more interested in protecting territory than servicing the market... why not let's hear some innovative solutions instead of road blocks followed by self-important mumbo-jumbo presented without substantiation...?!
I say this having lived in both the US and in Canada, and having purchased firearms related products in both countries... and, I should add, with all due respect that I can muster, but my sense is this: The retail firearms community in Canada is so small as to be almost incestuous... everybody knows everybody else among the dealers / importers... it's a tight club, and a lot of them often act like it... which imnsho leads to a much inflated sense of relative importance ("if you don't like it, tough" is often the answer)... Little fish in an even smaller pond, and the attitudes we're forced to endure would have them eaten whole if they were doing business anywhere else but here.
And so you might be asking yourself something like "what gives this d*ck the right to say these things...?!", to which my response would be, what gives you the right to ask that question...? We're your customers, and without us, you wouldn't exist... Importers will come and go, but there will always be customers, and someone else out there willing to do it better to buy from.
The market is ripe... pick it carefully or it just might spoil... or be picked clean by someone else who innovates, contemplates and serves. Check out the positive responses to Kodiak Outpost's "So, What Do You Guys Want?" thread under "Dealer Forums"... if they were listed on the stock exchange I'd be buying their index. Or have a look at the comment in the "German 308" thread in the "Ammo" forum where it's suggested that the complaints of customers (repeatedly) looking for product "should be required reading for all Canadian importers"... And don't give us any crap about "we can't get the stuff so what would you have us do...?!" What we'd have you do is solve the problem... innovate... do the job you signed on for, and make fair money in the process... no one here will begrudge you that... but enough with the "we can't and here's why" tales of misery and woe and long recountings of how tough it is out there... And no, it's not up to me to "do it if it's so easy"... I have a job, which I'm expected to do... just like we expect you to do yours.
That's plenty said, flame away...
i thinkyour a little over the top there juddo... but I do agree with you on some points.
what I don't think YOU understand is how much money the importers tie up.... they have to order product and apply for export permits that may take 1-2 years to be delivered. if the mnaufacturer has items in stock they still have to wait for export/import paper to be done, that can take up to a year....
take for example the stoner sr-15 rifles that just came in, it took them 2 years and multiple applications and change of rifle configuration requests to/from the dealer and the us state dept.
meanwhile they have 20-100% of the total value of the shipment tied up in down payments and so on..... then they have to pay brokerage fees and etc.
i do not begrudge the dealers... especially considering the poor service they have gotten in the past from canadas premier black rifle dist. (RH NICHOLLS)
i just wish they would look at the trend in the USA and realize that HEY we canadians are the same, we want the koolaid.... cherry flavour for me. we want MAGPUL everything, we want larue, we want daniel defence etc.....
we don't neccesarily want to have to settle for CAA stuff because that is all they can get..... why should we have to settle for crap ??
what I don't think YOU understand is how much money the importers tie up.... they have to order product and apply for export permits that may take 1-2 years to be delivered. if the mnaufacturer has items in stock they still have to wait for export/import paper to be done, that can take up to a year....
take for example the stoner sr-15 rifles that just came in, it took them 2 years and multiple applications and change of rifle configuration requests to/from the dealer and the us state dept.
meanwhile they have 20-100% of the total value of the shipment tied up in down payments and so on..... then they have to pay brokerage fees and etc.
i do not begrudge the dealers... especially considering the poor service they have gotten in the past from canadas premier black rifle dist. (RH NICHOLLS)
i just wish they would look at the trend in the USA and realize that HEY we canadians are the same, we want the koolaid.... cherry flavour for me. we want MAGPUL everything, we want larue, we want daniel defence etc.....
we don't neccesarily want to have to settle for CAA stuff because that is all they can get..... why should we have to settle for crap ??
I understand perfectly well... my question is, so...? While I appreciate that practically speaking it becomes our problem because we're left without access due to their inability to commit the funds necessary to "do the deal", but at the same time it's not our problem... and for that matter, it's often not their money they're putting up... I see plenty of pay now to play later going on... in fact I would be hard pressed to suggest another industry / market where customers are willing to pay up front for product that they will wait months, and months to receive... I'm sure there are analogs, but I would bet not many.
And so I refer back to Kodiak... who suggests that they'll do their best to bring in (even) small quantities of whatever they're asked to find, no cash up front, and dibs when the product comes in...
I should add at this point (as it occurs to me) that I have nothing whatsoever to do with Kodiak or GMS... or any other member of the industry at issue here.
um, very few dealers here take a deposit on anything anymore because the fact of the matter is they cannot guarentee delivery in a set time frame due to the screw around with the us state dept.....
i suggest if you have a few MILLION dollars to spare that you want to invest in inventory orders that may or may not be delivered in the next 24-36 months most of the dealers would probably take the interest free loan from you no problem and order whatever you want.
most of these guys have their money tied up in an industry that is going to fail.... it is not a matter or "IF".... just a matter of when either the USA becomes even more protectionist and says NO to all "firearms/Parts" exports out of the USA orthat canada says ALL YOUR GUNS BELONG To US.
the times they are a changing.... (P.S. if you want to loan me a million I would be happy)
i suggest if you have a few MILLION dollars to spare that you want to invest in inventory orders that may or may not be delivered in the next 24-36 months most of the dealers would probably take the interest free loan from you no problem and order whatever you want.
most of these guys have their money tied up in an industry that is going to fail.... it is not a matter or "IF".... just a matter of when either the USA becomes even more protectionist and says NO to all "firearms/Parts" exports out of the USA orthat canada says ALL YOUR GUNS BELONG To US.
the times they are a changing.... (P.S. if you want to loan me a million I would be happy)
I Agree...
I agree that there are forces at work that regardless of all the money or good intentions in the world, can't be stopped... but I would stop short of suggesting that we're simply rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic here. If that were the case, that is, if it were commonly believed that all of this gunnuttyness were coming to an end, not if, but when... then these guys would be getting out now while they can still take their shirts with them.
Let me give you an example of what I think is the way forward, and granted it's a limited example but it shows the kind of innovation that my over-the-top post a few spots up suggests is needed...
Questar, for reasons outside of their control, can't (or reliably can't or whatever) get CAR stocks out of the US any longer, so they innovate... they go to China and have a solution built, to their specs, that is now listed as one of their "top sellers"... and they have plenty of stock (no pun intended), at a good price.
Another example... Alberta Tactical Rifle... they have the tech to design and build lowers right here in Canada, and so, they do...
As for the millions needed... many hands makes light work, and a risk shared is a risk reduced. I have, and will again, pay up front... and if for demonstrable reasons beyond the control of those I've given my money to, should the ship sink, I'll go down with my little piece of it... quietly.
I agree that there are forces at work that regardless of all the money or good intentions in the world, can't be stopped... but I would stop short of suggesting that we're simply rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic here. If that were the case, that is, if it were commonly believed that all of this gunnuttyness were coming to an end, not if, but when... then these guys would be getting out now while they can still take their shirts with them.
Let me give you an example of what I think is the way forward, and granted it's a limited example but it shows the kind of innovation that my over-the-top post a few spots up suggests is needed...
Questar, for reasons outside of their control, can't (or reliably can't or whatever) get CAR stocks out of the US any longer, so they innovate... they go to China and have a solution built, to their specs, that is now listed as one of their "top sellers"... and they have plenty of stock (no pun intended), at a good price.
Another example... Alberta Tactical Rifle... they have the tech to design and build lowers right here in Canada, and so, they do...
As for the millions needed... many hands makes light work, and a risk shared is a risk reduced. I have, and will again, pay up front... and if for demonstrable reasons beyond the control of those I've given my money to, should the ship sink, I'll go down with my little piece of it... quietly.
To Questar and others, if you bring em in, they will sell. flat out. Don't sweat the few who complain about it. You are sold out of aluminum c-products at $40 per mag plus shipping. an order of p-mags would be sold ASAP. Even the complainers would buy.
IDPACONVERT
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I'd buy 30 of them at $40
I'm not a big fan of the saying 'We won't make enough money so we won't sell it"?? WTF?
How about "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"
Must be a pretty profitable business to turn down any possible profit however small.
Business can't survive on only high profit margin items - not enough of them.
I would rather serve many customers and make a smaller margin, than serve the $elect few that will pay a high margin.
How about "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"
Must be a pretty profitable business to turn down any possible profit however small.
Business can't survive on only high profit margin items - not enough of them.
I would rather serve many customers and make a smaller margin, than serve the $elect few that will pay a high margin.
I can't even get metal mags for less than $35.....and they are in country. Save your money, I'll buy out your share.
Meh I have more than enough USGI and other mags,PMags are good but not worth the amounts being charged in Canada. Like all magazines they are disposable not family heirlooms, hardly worth the cost as other have pointed out here.
BTW I have yet to pay more than $15.00 for a USGI or similar AR magazine, shop around.
I bought a few sabre mags at Reliable for $45 ea. They were all pinned so ugly too, but they were the only ones they had in stock. For Pmags, I would have no problem paying $45-$50 ea, I would buy in quantities of at least 4 each time. Bring them in, they will sell.
In the first part, that statement is socialist crap.
In the second part, business have the resources to do x activities - so they do the ones with the highest margin. If all the margins are small, fine. If ten are big margin and ten are small and you can only do five things, you pick from the ten high-margin things. Any business that does it differently is soon gone due to a smarter competitor.
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