Post-1990 M70 action?

[tiriaq]

The alloy used to cast springs is one that allows the piece to be appropriately heat treated to function as a spring.
Over 30 years ago I was involved in the manufacture of a flintlock gun, and our main and frizzen springs were cast. I am still using some of these and they are perfectly serviceable. The steel we used was 6150. An extrator in a Mauser type rifle is subject to less flexing that the mainspring in a sidelock.
The cast extractors used by Winchester and Ruger obviously work, as do the heat treated bolts and receivers used by Ruger. Modern casting technology is a perfectly good manufacturing option.
Pre-64 Winchesters used the technology that was available at the time; the more recently made ones use different technology.
Incidentally, no one has mentionned the other delight in pre- and post- 64 actions - the safety. It is not unusual at all for these to become unusable if the rifle has seen a lot of use. Usually a bit adjustment to the cocking piece will get them working, but the design is really flimsy compared with something like a Mauser.

 

[DarrylDB]

There is no explaing to you is there? your running in circles.
We can both agree that if you harden steel, it becomes more brittle..

This is the trade off... the harder the steel, the more brittle it is. (in most cases, some compositions give a good mix of both, but, we're not talking about different tool steels, or expensive alloys )


I gues this is JUST what i should have wrote so you understand CLEARLY what Im saying in response to you...

A little springier doesnt make it any better... .

And this is the main point I've been trying to make all along
And I'll say it again... if you think you need a forged extractor rather than a new "classic extractor, give er. whatever makes you sleep at night...
personally, I could care less.

 

[Rod]

"Superior Modern Technology", not superior modern metallurgy, allows today's gun makers to use a Cheaper Grade of Steel to accomplish the same thing Winchester did in it's pre-64 guns. This "Superior Modern Technology, has given us the M70 Classic Action, 1992 - 2006. at a price the working man could afford and still lay claim to an American made Winchester. They are a great action, no doubt about it. My own personal opinion of the 1964 - 1991 push feed, is very low as I've owned them and couldn't get rid of them fast enough. But the post 1992 Classic Action is just fine. I still prefer a pre-64 Winchester M70, but if one was not available I wouldn't have a problem purchasing the post 1992 Classic as it's as close to the pre-64 as we're ever going to get.

The M70 3-position safety is considered to be excellent. For one to not function, as previously mentioned, the action would have to be all but worn out; but even at that it could be rebuilt. Last time I paid attention, a pre-64 M70 action only, was selling from $600 - $750.

quote -- Frank de Haas -- "Winchester rifle fans -- and they are legion -- stoutly maintain that the pre-1964 M70 action is the best centrefire bolt action ever made, that has no faults, and that it cannot be improved upon." -- Frank de Haas says he agrees with this, but to a certain point. The point is that even though the pre-64 M70 action is considered to be very safe, he feels it could easily have been made even safer if it had a second vent hole in the left side of the receiver as there is in the right side of the receiver ring.

I am one of those -- "Winchester rifle Fans", but also believe that it's not a perfect world and there's always room for improvement. Why not make the very best even better? But it seems that at today's rate, for every improvement we create another problem. So I'll leave my M70's the way they are.

Rod

 

[Gatehouse]

As soon as Chuck Hawks gets mentioned...well, it's gonna get good

 

[Dogleg]

At the price pre 64 and post 90 Model 70 actions are going for, the Montana Rifleman M1999 action for $700 Canadian is a real option. It addresses the real or imagined gas handling issues of the Model 70 and eliminates the POS alloy trigger guard and two piece bottom end metal. From the few I've handled I would judge it to be a better Model 70 than the Model 70 ever was. I'll be building one up as soon as I decide on a caliber.

 

[rgv]

There is no explaing to you is there?

with explanations like these.......

Spring steel is brittle

hard often means brittle. (springs break more often than bending right/compressing?)

atleast I can explain my assumptions beyone throwing around the word elasticity..

Well, let's just say I'll pass on your "explaing"

your running in circles.

No, I'm being repetitive, because spring steel is alloyed and hardened to be flexible and elastic, and not brittle, as you stated in your original post, then felt compelled (mysteriously) to defend.

I gues this is JUST what i should have wrote so you understand CLEARLY what Im saying in response to you...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarrylDB
A little springier doesnt make it any better... .

backtrack noted. Your first response was quite clear actually.

I guess no "brittle" spring steel valve-springs have broken in your car in the last couple days.

 

[Jeff/1911]

As soon as Chuck Hawks gets mentioned...well, it's gonna get good

...No kidding.

 

[DarrylDB]

I guess no "brittle" spring steel valve-springs have broken in your car in the last couple days.

NOt in the last couple of days, but I did change as set 3 weeks ago in a 340 HP 3.8 Supercoupe. 2 springs had inners broke on the comp cams springs... 190 in th seat with a 565 custom gring Tommy Morana shaft, and a 1.80 rocker.
Can you tell me why they werent just bent? can you tell me why you wouldnt just replace the two broken ones instead of a whole set? I mean, those two must have been one off's right? very uncommon for a valve spring to break
(And just so we're not playing internet #### is bigger, I can send you the invoice for the springs and new retainers if you need.)
And can you answer for me why they're not coverend under warranty once theyre installed (except in the cases of a few bad spring batches that comp cams did a few years ago)


IM not driving anything over 600 horsepower right now, But if you want to spin this that way, by all means... I've built more motors than rifles.

Why do you have to use double, or triple valvesprings on High RPM motors, or with lift over 500. Anyone willing to spend a few bucks on a short, or heads will do this why? Springs break/Float. if you've got a spring that is 210 in the seat, on a shaft over 600, there is a good chance that you'll be replacing your springs every year to 2 years depending on the number of passes you have on the motor... Why? Its not because they're prone to breakage right?
Take a heavy double, or triple thats spec'd up to .600, and put them on a head with a 700 is solid, and see how long they hold up for you...
You'll have an awfully expensive set of ashtrays, and a pile scrap aluminum or cast steel.

I''ve degraded this discussion far enough form the original thread... Im done...

 

[Rod]

At the price pre 64 and post 90 Model 70 actions are going for, the Montana Rifleman M1999 action for $700 Canadian is a real option. It addresses the real or imagined gas handling issues of the Model 70 and eliminates the POS alloy trigger guard and two piece bottom end metal. From the few I've handled I would judge it to be a better Model 70 than the Model 70 ever was. I'll be building one up as soon as I decide on a caliber.

I've been following the Montana Rifleman, out of Kalispell, Montana, for awhile now. If I was to build a rifle I would use their actions. What I like is they've maintained the pre-64 M70 features and quality as well as adding the second vent hole in the receiver ring.

A barreled long-action, blued, is currently $1143 US. They have a list of preferred stock-makers who specialize in stock-making for their actions.

Actually, I could always use another rifle. I think I'll start putting money away for that special one.

Regards:
Rod

 

[Leeper]

If the writers mentioned (Chuck Hawks, Jameison, O'Connor) really said the gas handling of the M98 and the M70 were essentially the same, that just illustrates they didn't know any better. This is not uncommon in the field.
Conceptually, I like the MRC action just fine but find it has some design and quality control issues. Fixable but there nonetheless. They do handle escaping gas better than the M70. Regards, Bill.