Potential Match Division Change - advice needed.

At the one I shoot if you have a 5 rounder you are allowed to start charged and ready to go. If you have 10 rounders you start unloaded and bolt forward.

But really that advantage is quite small since you can make up the 3 second loading time at the start by having to reload less during a medium or long stage.
 
pmt, I've seen in the States 30 round magazines are pretty standard and here in Canada it would be 10 rounders. It was rare to have over 30 rounds of rifle in a single stage so there were "required reloads" or else it was a procedural.

Regardless of rounds in the mag, it is nice to have a good handle for mag changes that the 30 rounders give. Having a Beowulf with the extra length is probably going to give a reload speed advantage regardless of the number of rounds in it over the smaller 10 round mag. Also, to me having 10 in the gun and in the rifle would make the math easier to plan reloads and game out stages. I have enough trouble counting to six when shooting revolver.

DNH
 
pmt said:
In the US matches I've shot the only thing that put you in OPEN was the tank brake, a second optics and the bipod on your AR. There was no mag limit (including 100rd Beta mags) A lot of guys have 60 & 100 rd Surefire mags in Tac Ops & Tac Lim. On the other hand, some clubs say no coupled mags or max 30rd mags.
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Starting to see mag length restrictions at the bigger matches....as well coupled mags are needing to be offset so as not to have such a wide monopod.
 
7.62mm said:
Starting to see mag length restrictions at the bigger matches....as well coupled mags are needing to be offset so as not to have such a wide monopod.
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I believe the bigger matches you're referring to is Rocky Mtn? They don't like coupled mags without an offset. I believe the FNH match restricts shooters to 30rd mags. Are there others?
IMGA doesn't allow drums mags in TacOp or LIm(2003). USPSA just says 'No Limit' - but everyone's rules keep changing. It's hard to find any published current rules.
 
heavenIsAlie said:
I think it sounds like a good solution, same reason shotguns with mags or the speed loader things are in open, gear advantage.
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'Not too hurt anyone's feelings, but... From what I've seen there is no advantage in using mag fed shootguns or those "speed loader things" unless the shooter can actually operate them.

Time and time again I see guys coming out to matches having just aquired the latest flavor of the month doo-hicky thinking "this is it... I'm gonna rock"

Then we watch as they fumble-phuk their mag fed shotty or scramble to retreive the multitude of shells their "speed loader thing" just puked up all over the ground.

I look at the scores from past TH 3gun matches and one thing is clear... By and large the guys shooting with "open" gear aren't doing as well as the skilled guys shooting "not open" gear... Often by a land slide.
 
667 said:
'Not too hurt anyone's feelings, but... From what I've seen there is no advantage in using mag fed shootguns or those "speed loader things" unless the shooter can actually operate them.

Time and time again I see guys coming out to matches having just aquired the latest flavor of the month doo-hicky thinking "this is it... I'm gonna rock"

Then we watch as they fumble-phuk their mag fed shotty or scramble to retreive the multitude of shells their "speed loader thing" just puked up all over the ground.

I look at the scores from past TH 3gun matches and one thing is clear... By and large the guys shooting with "open" gear aren't doing as well as the skilled guys shooting "not open" gear... Often by a land slide.
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And you see the same thing at IPSC matches, its not uncommon for GM shoters in production to beat all the open shooters at a match, does that mean we should let those open people shoot in production with their open guns?

Divisions are gear based, classes are shooter based. If you give a shooter X gear does he have a distinct advantage over himself if he had Y gear and just as much practice time? If the answer is yes then make it a different division.
 
These comments are hitting on one of the reasons why I love the shooting sports. Put the work in and show up with a reliable gun and you're going to do well. It feels so sweet when you're beating guys who showed up with stuff that cost thousands more than what you are running.

Division, being equipment based, provides or preserves the level of enjoyment. It is no fun to show up with a suitable and reliable gun and have a large equipment disadvantage over others you're competing against. This sends the message that you need to spend a lot of money on equipment to be competitive. You do need to spend a lot of money...but that should be on ammo and training. Equipment is not going to make the operator good.

I believe rules ultimately make it a shooting competition not an equipment race...

DNH
 
I'm on the fence about this one... PCV mags are available to everyone and their grandmother and for a 3gun match loadout, the price difference is in the $100 ballpark. What's the price difference between full TacOps and Open gear?
 
heavenIsAlie said:
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Divisions are gear based, classes are shooter based. If you give a shooter X gear does he have a distinct advantage over himself if he had Y gear and just as much practice time? If the answer is yes then make it a different division.
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The first portion is exactly on target. The second portion is exactly the solution, BUT adjudicating the gear differences is problematic. So, we tend to see divisional gear restrictions based on factors that are easy to adjudicate, rather than purely the reality of advantage gained. Optics for sure, and possibly magazine capacity.

Consider muzzle devices: An effective brake gives a huge advantage for certain types of stages, but there are so many options between the A2 flash hider and the tank brake that it's impossible to draw the line in a meaningful place. So we don't usually see division requirements regarding brakes. (IPSC 3-Gun has "length restrictions" regarding brakes, but nobody else pays attention to them)
 
alpining said:
The first portion is exactly on target. The second portion is exactly the solution, BUT adjudicating the gear differences is problematic. So, we tend to see divisional gear restrictions based on factors that are easy to adjudicate, rather than purely the reality of advantage gained. Optics for sure, and possibly magazine capacity.

Consider muzzle devices: An effective brake gives a huge advantage for certain types of stages, but there are so many options between the A2 flash hider and the tank brake that it's impossible to draw the line in a meaningful place. So we don't usually see division requirements regarding brakes. (IPSC 3-Gun has "length restrictions" regarding brakes, but nobody else pays attention to them)
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lots of 3 gun competitions in the states do take the brakes into account, IIRC they use both length and diameter to separate them. However I do agree it is harder to draw a line there, and really you only need to once you have ironed out all the other division requirements.
 
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