Powder calculations - please help

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kdunning

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When I started loading I had a Dillon Sqaure Deal. I purchased a 1lb bottle of tight group which filled the hopper about 80%. I got about 900 rounds to that pound, and then I went directly to 8lb jugs to save money. I was loading at 4.0 grains for 9mm rounds.

Heres my math:

1 pound = 7000 grains
7000/4 = 1750

Whats going on with this. I am not getting even close to 1750 rounds per pound. There is barely any spill, and my humidity is 55%.

I have since upgraded to a Dillon 650XL (what a machine) and it looks like I'm doing about the same.

Does anyone have any answers or suggestions???

Thanks for your time.
 
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Who did you get the 1lb bottle from? Your math is correct for how many you should get, so I wonder how much powder you actually got.

Have you shot any of the 900 you made, did you verify that you were putting 4gr into the cases?
 
Assuming you have shot those rounds, it sounds like you got ripped off. You would have had to double charge every case to get the number of rounds you got..... Sounds like that's not the case as you said you've already gone to 8 lb kegs, implying that the first pound was reloaded a while ago.

That's why buying powder of the forum can bite you.... never know for sure without weighing it
 
You might check to see if that 1 lb bottle is actually 1 lb. I bought a "1lb" bottle of Trail Boss the other day, only to find out it's really only a 9 ounce bottle, not 16 ounces.

Same size black plastic bottle as the Varget containers that DO contain 1 lb.

Very misleading. Disappointing.
 
The bottle was sealed when I bought it, however this was a few years ago. Maybe it was only 9oz. Can anyone confirm how much powder goes into a full hopper??? I fill it about an inch below the rim to allow the top to go on. I would say I'm getting about 1000 rounds at 4.0 grains with that. Does this seem right???
 
Stevebc... i found that out the hard way too.... turns out that Trail Boss is such a bulky/lightweight powder that they only give 9ounces in a 1 pound jar.

The upside is that it certainly (normally) costs less than a full pound of other powders, even other pistol powders, so that's nice. but still, you buy a jar expecting a pound, and get 9 ounces...

kdunning - powder hoppers will hold varying amounts depending on the density of the powder. this is the same reason that trail boss comes in 9 ounce jars - they can't fit a full pound in the jar and have it be full to a reasonable level - they don't like to fill the jars all the way full, I assume the reason is because it would make for messy pouring. either way, your hopper may hold 12 ounces of one powder, 8 of another, etc.

Either way, titegroup only comes in 1, 4, and 8 pound containers. did you buy it from a store or from the forum/private seller? It isn't hard to reseal the jars and make them look new - i've actually opened a jar of 8208xbr and one of H4895, used some, but didn't throw away the "seal" piece - i then went to use those powders a few weeks later and both acted like they were sealed. maybe a little easier to pull the seal piece off, but it was clearly not just loose, there was some stickyness.

other than that, not sure what you did - have you shot any of those rounds? if not, you would be very wise to pull a couple apart and double check your charge weight with a scale that is known to be accurate down at 4 grains - if you actually used a pound of powder for only 1000 rounds, you've got A LOT more powder in those cases than 4 grains. could go kaboom rather easily with that kind of weight - you'd likely be tripling your pressure levels, if not even more than triple... certainly way way too high.

if they fired fine, then i'd chalk it up to there wasn't the right amount of powder in your cannister, oh well, it is what it is. next time you buy some/load some, if you're curious, weigh what you put into the hopper first, and see how many rounsd you get out of it. powder can't disappear, so if it was there it went into the rounds, if your gun didn't blow up or act funny, then you know you were shorted on powder... simple as that
 
kdunning said:
The bottle was sealed when I bought it, however this was a few years ago. Maybe it was only 9oz. Can anyone confirm how much powder goes into a full hopper??? I fill it about an inch below the rim to allow the top to go on. I would say I'm getting about 1000 rounds at 4.0 grains with that. Does this seem right???
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It's quite common for powders to be packed less than a 1 lb in a 1 lb. can, SR 7625 comes to mind (1/2 lb. per tin), can't remember what Titegroup is packed in, last I bought was in a 4 lb box.

Just want to offer up an observation regarding the level to which you fill your powder measure. While I have had a couple of primer detonations in my press (650), I've had no flash fire in the powder magazine as a result...others have... I have a acquaintance who had a primer incident in his press, the whole tube full detonated, he had pieces of the primer mechanism (650 press) embedded in the ceiling wood above the press (the primer level indicator rod for one thing), The disturbing part of the story is that the small amount of powder that was in the measure also ignited. He only had a small amount in the measure (yes the lid was on the measure but removed by the primer ruckus) but was very disturbed by the amount of fire that erupted for a short period of time. He was very certain he would have lost his house if the measure would have been a full tube of powder.

for this reason I only ever fill to about 3/4 " above the metal hopper.
 
I'm going to have to get a scale and see how much goes in.

Fingers284. That is a good piece of advice. If 4 grains makes a hell of a blast in a 9mm, I can't imagine what 1/2 - 1 lbs would do in the press.
 
kdunning said:
I'm going to have to get a scale and see how much goes in.

Fingers284. That is a good piece of advice. If 4 grains makes a hell of a blast in a 9mm, I can't imagine what 1/2 - 1 lbs would do in the press.
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You dont have a scale? how were you sure that the press was dropping 4gr before?
I use Titegroup, it comes in a 1lb can. You should be getting easily over 1500 rounds per pound... Powder is lost somewhere..
 
fingers284 said:
It's quite common for powders to be packed less than a 1 lb in a 1 lb. can, SR 7625 comes to mind (1/2 lb. per tin), can't remember what Titegroup is packed in, last I bought was in a 4 lb box.

Just want to offer up an observation regarding the level to which you fill your powder measure. While I have had a couple of primer detonations in my press (650), I've had no flash fire in the powder magazine as a result...others have... I have a acquaintance who had a primer incident in his press, the whole tube full detonated, he had pieces of the primer mechanism (650 press) embedded in the ceiling wood above the press (the primer level indicator rod for one thing), The disturbing part of the story is that the small amount of powder that was in the measure also ignited. He only had a small amount in the measure (yes the lid was on the measure but removed by the primer ruckus) but was very disturbed by the amount of fire that erupted for a short period of time. He was very certain he would have lost his house if the measure would have been a full tube of powder.

for this reason I only ever fill to about 3/4 " above the metal hopper.
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Your house isn't going to burn down from a pound of powder going off. I've ignited alot of powder for fun and while it's an intense heat it's quick. Unless your reloading with lots of early ignited items near you and you don't have a fire extinguisher on hand, I would be very shocked if your house burns down from it.
 
kdunning said:
I'm going to have to get a scale and see how much goes in.

Fingers284. That is a good piece of advice. If 4 grains makes a hell of a blast in a 9mm, I can't imagine what 1/2 - 1 lbs would do in the press.
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It would burn, not make a blast.

For your own edification and education, go get yourself a disposable aluminum basting or baking pan and drop about 1 gr of powder into it, then take it outside somewhere safe and far from combustibles and ignite it with a BBQ lighter or a taper (not a match-- keep your hands away from it).

You'll see that it burns very energetically, but it doesn't explode.

It's still good advice, though: as a general good practice, keep as little powder in your hopper as you need for the task at hand.
 
I would suggest you buy a scale and a collet bullet puller, (and the right size collet), I have a feeling you'll need the puller.
 
kdunning said:
I'm going to have to get a scale and see how much goes in.

Fingers284. That is a good piece of advice. If 4 grains makes a hell of a blast in a 9mm, I can't imagine what 1/2 - 1 lbs would do in the press.
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4 grains makes a blast in a 9mm because it is contained and the pressure from the gas production builds up.

Pour out 20 grains of powder in a small pile outside, and light it with a BIC lighter - you won't see any explosion at all. You will see the powder start to burn (probably pretty quickly and a little violently for titegroup, but burn nonetheless) and it will burn surprisingly slowly considering the force and pressure that is generated when it is confined inside of a cartridge.

In fact, I routinely light up small piles of powder that spill. Whenever I double charge a case by accident and powder spills out the top (it happens rarely, but it still happens to the best of us, hence why we should check all of our cases before topping them off with a bullet), or if I knock over a case, or the case sticks to the funnel as i lift it off, or whatever else happens to cause a few grains of powder to spill, i won't try to scrape it off a desk and reuse it, who knows what else is on the desk (dust, dirt, brass shavings or chips that got missed, wood bits from the desk, who knows). I also don't really cherish the idea of putting it in my garbage, since it doesn't need to get emptied often I would be a little nervous that there would be powder piling up on the bottom. Instead, I scrape it up and put it on a little metal dish and just light it up, right there in my room, on the table a foot or two away from me.

The most that's happened was when an entire 223 case fell over upside down kind of, and about 21 grains of H4198 spilled. I lit this and it made me jump a bit back because it burned more ferociously than H4895, 8208XBR, Varget, etc that I normally use. But that's it.

Yes, a half pound to a pound would be a big flame for a few seconds, but it would be out momentarily afterwards and the fire would be very easy to contain, especially if it just lit up on the press itself.

Either way, filling only 3/4" above the metal hopper is not a good idea because there is less consistency in the force pushing down on the powder as you get lower and lower. I personally feel that the best consistency is achieved with a nearly full hopper and a baffle... could be wrong here and i'll certainly admit that, but I think that having it barely full and letting it get less full is just going to cause lighter and lighter charges being dispensed as you get lower in powder.

Plus, why refill the hopper every few rounds? the point of a hopper is to hold your powder so you aren't having to deal with it regularly.
 
Spawn-Inc said:
Your house isn't going to burn down from a pound of powder going off. I've ignited alot of powder for fun and while it's an intense heat it's quick. Unless your reloading with lots of early ignited items near you and you don't have a fire extinguisher on hand, I would be very shocked if your house burns down from it.
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I guess your entitled to do as you wish in your house as I am in mine...it was only offered up as a friendly warning before the need for remedial action became to late...
 
krprice84 said:
4 grains makes a blast in a 9mm because it is contained and the pressure from the gas production builds up.

Pour out 20 grains of powder in a small pile outside, and light it with a BIC lighter - you won't see any explosion at all. You will see the powder start to burn (probably pretty quickly and a little violently for titegroup, but burn nonetheless) and it will burn surprisingly slowly considering the force and pressure that is generated when it is confined inside of a cartridge.

In fact, I routinely light up small piles of powder that spill. Whenever I double charge a case by accident and powder spills out the top (it happens rarely, but it still happens to the best of us, hence why we should check all of our cases before topping them off with a bullet), or if I knock over a case, or the case sticks to the funnel as i lift it off, or whatever else happens to cause a few grains of powder to spill, i won't try to scrape it off a desk and reuse it, who knows what else is on the desk (dust, dirt, brass shavings or chips that got missed, wood bits from the desk, who knows). I also don't really cherish the idea of putting it in my garbage, since it doesn't need to get emptied often I would be a little nervous that there would be powder piling up on the bottom. Instead, I scrape it up and put it on a little metal dish and just light it up, right there in my room, on the table a foot or two away from me.

The most that's happened was when an entire 223 case fell over upside down kind of, and about 21 grains of H4198 spilled. I lit this and it made me jump a bit back because it burned more ferociously than H4895, 8208XBR, Varget, etc that I normally use. But that's it.

Yes, a half pound to a pound would be a big flame for a few seconds, but it would be out momentarily afterwards and the fire would be very easy to contain, especially if it just lit up on the press itself.
Either way, filling only 3/4" above the metal hopper is not a good idea because there is less consistency in the force pushing down on the powder as you get lower and lower. I personally feel that the best consistency is achieved with a nearly full hopper and a baffle... could be wrong here and i'll certainly admit that, but I think that having it barely full and letting it get less full is just going to cause lighter and lighter charges being dispensed as you get lower in powder.

Plus, why refill the hopper every few rounds? the point of a hopper is to hold your powder so you aren't having to deal with it regularly.
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I've burnt several lbs of old unlabeled powder and a fire from 1 lb would be no easy task to contain while its happening, the after effect fire maybe... in less combustible material... but the actual powder fire would burn until it had no more fuel to maintain itself, you couldn't grab a fire extinguisher and bring it to bear & usable in the time a lb of powder would burn to be effective. I must confess that I've never lit a lb of powder in a measure tube but can visualize the tube acting as a blow torch for a few seconds until it melts. That torch effect has the possibility of shooting flame a few feet straight up. In my loading room, with the press on a strong mount, the ceiling is 3 ft or so above the measure. Completely possible for the compressed paper ceiling tile (I will be removed the tileing after considering my own post) & 50 yr old planking to ignite.

I set my powder measures with the amount of powder that I put in the measure, that way the metering accuracy should be the same with my loads as you get when you set yours with a full tube...my pistol powders meter consistently within .01 of a grain with only 3/4 " powder above the metal. If you get better than that or require better, good for you, but .01 is very much within my requirements.
 
where are you located? and where do you shoot?

I just want to know so I can stay clear of you on the range............thnx..........
 
OP, your calculations are correct. I typically get +/- 1600 rounds from a pound of Titegroup.

Good on you to ask where the MIA powder went, you should indeed be very concerned. From this end, only two possibility:
1) you did not have a pound of powder to start with; or
2) your reloading process seriously lack controls.

If the reason for your powder going AWOL is the latter reason, you should be critically concerned for your physical integrity every time you pull the trigger on your rounds. Potential grenades.

Simply said, a bullet can only be seated on a case when absolutely certain the amount of powder in it is correct. The powder dispensed must be monitored very closely until repeatable-reliable results are achieved. Even then, you may relax the monitoring a bit but it still must be done regularly. Plenty of ugly stories on the net of guys having to pull thousands of bullets or of less lucky ones with exploded guns and related injuries.

As few have hinted above, do get the proper tools to monitor your powder charge (a calibrated beam or electronic scale). Include control procedures in your process and respect them. Failure to do that is... lets just say it must be a b*tch to scratch in the morning with a missing strong hand.
 
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