Powder choice help
- Thread starter DarkSith
- Start date
Don't be concerned about compressing the powder.
This is not completely true .if you load a compressed load with a long bullet that is very close to touching the lands the powder can push the bullet forward from the orginial seating depth after it has sat for a wile.in this case you have a compressed load that when put into the rifle has the bullet seated into the lands and can cause excessive pressure.the lymans reloading handbook as several warnnings about this.be sure to remeasure all cartridges after they have sat for a couple hours to be sure the bullet hasn't been pushed forward by the compressed powder.
This is not completely true .if you load a compressed load with a long bullet that is very close to touching the lands the powder can push the bullet forward from the orginial seating depth after it has sat for a wile.in this case you have a compressed load that when put into the rifle has the bullet seated into the lands and can cause excessive pressure.the lymans reloading handbook as several warnnings about this.be sure to remeasure all cartridges after they have sat for a couple hours to be sure the bullet hasn't been pushed forward by the compressed powder.
One says Im ok to touch the lands, the other says Im not.
Or, as long as I start low while touching the lands and work up from there then I am ok? The danger is when you work your way up without touching the lands, then load enough powder that it makes your bullets touch the lands and now you have a dangerous situation?
Another question, when I chamber a round and I have it seated so it will touch the lands, will the friction between the bullet and the lands push the bullet back into the neck of the casing further? I guess Im saying my seating length would be long enough to push the bullet into the lands. Am I making sense?
no thats good, Im new and Im just trying to make sure that I learn and understand everything. I don't wanna think I know when I don't and end up damaging myself of my equipment. I understand what your saying, I may think the round won't touch the lands, but 2 days later when I go and shoot those rounds they may have changed. I gotcha, thanks for the tip
Nothing different about your rifle, its the long bullet you are using. Because its so long, you are seating it deeper than most other bullets would be, to fit in the magazine or to be just off the lands in your barrel...
Personally, I don't work up loads that are jammed into the lands. I like to be at least .010 off the lands...
Where are you located?
BigUglyMan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Scotland
When I was first loading my 9.3x62 with 286 TSX's I was getting 400 FPS slower than book velocities with a maximum load. In effort to try to get where I needed to be I loaded up a max load out of the Nosler manual - 58.5gr of RL15. It was a load belonging to the old X bullet and was several grains higher than the current published max (#4 Manual lists 53 gr as the max and claims that'll give you 2300 FPS - not in my rifle!). When I was seating the bullet I pressed it so hard and compressed the powder so much that the bullet actually stuck in the seating stem of the die and pulled out on the downstroke.
I eventually rectified the problem by using the stem for seating RN bullets and dies for my 416 Rigby. That got them squashed into the case, but they would only go so far into the case (they actually slithered out from the pressure). I took a buddy with me to the range when I shot them, just in case. Those super-compressed loads, way over book max, barely made 2020 FPS - no damned improvement! Still way short of where they needed to be. So much for my fear though.I ended up switching bullets and going to a heavier powder charge - 61.5gr or RL15 and am finally where I want to be - 2350 FPS on a cool fall day.
I'll post script this by saying that I am a fairly experienced reloader and I only went to this length after working my way up and always paying attention to what the chrony said and how the rifle behaved. I mic'd cases which showed that my chamber is slightly oversized which appears to be lowering the pressures. I can't explain exactly why the Barnes data was so far off for me, but it was. My load is 3 grains over the max charge for RL15 with the 286gr Nosler Partition. I've always felt that the NPT gives you more pressure than a cup and core bullet due to that solid partition through the middle (same for the Swift). So I felt safe going past the book max but it's territory that you should tread into carefully.
Long story short - you won't hurt yourself with compressed powder so long as you're not going way off the deep end.
Thanks BigUglyMan, good to know. I won't be going past max until I have a chrony and someone with some experience by my side, hopefully thats sooner than later, but Im in no rush and I still have a huge learning curve.
OK....back to the point of this sweet educational post. RL15 and Varget are 2 denser powders that may give me the ability to work up a load more if I can't get more IMR 4350 into my shells. Any others?
Im pretty sure that I can get quite a bit more powder into my shells now that I know that I can compress them a bit, and to watch out for the powder pushing my bullet back out changing my COL.
OK....back to the point of this sweet educational post. RL15 and Varget are 2 denser powders that may give me the ability to work up a load more if I can't get more IMR 4350 into my shells. Any others?
Im pretty sure that I can get quite a bit more powder into my shells now that I know that I can compress them a bit, and to watch out for the powder pushing my bullet back out changing my COL.
Loads with IMR 4320/4064/4895 will occupy less volume in the case. All of these powders are excellent in the .30-06 and are my choices with 150,165 and 168gr bullets, except for Garands where only 4064 and 4895 provide the correct pressure pulse for the gas system. I do like IMR 4350 with 180gr bullets though.
I still can't understand all of this. You sound as if you are concerned about the forward part of the bullet entering the barrel. They always do, and this is normal. If the bullet had to be seated that deep, to keep from hitting the lands, it would weigh far, far more, than 168 grains, or else be made of a light material. Maybe it is copper and is longer for it's weight, but I don't think it would be that fat.
I appreciate you are a fairly new loader and obviously want to do the right thing. Whether or not the bullet touches the lands keeps coming up. I have said it on these postings so many times. I have never noticed the slightest bit of difference in pressure, whther a bullet touches the lands, or is clear of the lands. And I have done this with loads that were well above the loads shown in modern north american loading manuals.
I can well remember when I thought it would be dangerous to touch the lands. Only after the most famous gun writer of all time, and the one with the largest number of readers, Jack O'Connor, wrote that it did not increase pressures, did I work myself into it.
Someone said people think it would increase pressure, because it sounds reasonable. So true. But what seems reasonable and what happens in the real world are two diffrent things.
Hey H4831
The only reason I am or thought that there could be a pressure issue with the bullet starting out touching the lands is because someone told me that. I am too new to reloading to assume anything, if I had a mentor/teacher it might be a different story, but Im learning on my own and I don't wanna learn the hard way.
When I think about the pressure and how physics works, I can't understand how there would be a pressure increase, since the bullet is gonna touch those lands one way or another, and the friction of the bullet going through the barrel won't change, that is a constant, so the pressure shouldn't increase. The only way I see it would is the law "what is in motion wants to stay in motion", so there maybe the slightest of added resistance when the powder goes boom, but is .01 of an inch really gonna do anything?
Now that being said, and believing you (I seriously do) what happens to the bullet that has been marked up by the lands that I have removed from my gun because I didn't get a shot at an animal that day?
Someone also put a chart up here, so I wonder where it came from, and if it is valid. You can understand me being hesitant when 1 person says 1 thing, and everyone else says another. You can't always believe everything you see/read on the internet I have learned lol.
Anyway, if Im shooting at the range then the bullet touching the lands is no problem, that bullet is going through my barrel once it touches the lands. But what about hunting? I don't want a bunch of rounds all marked up and scratched, won't that affect my accuracy?
The only reason I am or thought that there could be a pressure issue with the bullet starting out touching the lands is because someone told me that. I am too new to reloading to assume anything, if I had a mentor/teacher it might be a different story, but Im learning on my own and I don't wanna learn the hard way.
When I think about the pressure and how physics works, I can't understand how there would be a pressure increase, since the bullet is gonna touch those lands one way or another, and the friction of the bullet going through the barrel won't change, that is a constant, so the pressure shouldn't increase. The only way I see it would is the law "what is in motion wants to stay in motion", so there maybe the slightest of added resistance when the powder goes boom, but is .01 of an inch really gonna do anything?
Now that being said, and believing you (I seriously do) what happens to the bullet that has been marked up by the lands that I have removed from my gun because I didn't get a shot at an animal that day?
Someone also put a chart up here, so I wonder where it came from, and if it is valid. You can understand me being hesitant when 1 person says 1 thing, and everyone else says another. You can't always believe everything you see/read on the internet I have learned lol.
Anyway, if Im shooting at the range then the bullet touching the lands is no problem, that bullet is going through my barrel once it touches the lands. But what about hunting? I don't want a bunch of rounds all marked up and scratched, won't that affect my accuracy?
Pathfinder
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Northeast Ontario
a ball powder like blc-2 would not take up as much place in the case if that's your concern. I would probably try that and 4064 as that one will give you more velocity if that's important for you .
I wonder how long you have to shoot, before your theory comes about? I have been shooting for a great many years, and, unless something is special, I load for maximum safe velocity.
This shooting bit is so mixed up. Shooters will spend hours and hours, pouring over balloistic sheets, to see what rifle will give them 100 fps faster and then pay big money to acquire a rifle similar to what they have, but by cracky, it will go 100 fps faster!
Then, they will load it light in the great accuracy chase. Their new rifle could be some kind of super 30 magnum, but their final load will put it in the same class as a 30-06. Or, their new smokepole will be a 30-06, but their final "accuracy" load will be little above a 30-30.
I don't know where all these people got the idea that loading their rifles light will result in better accuracy. The proven facts are the opposite. If you don't think so, talk to the bench rest shooters. Powder burns best and most consistant, when it is burning at full, normal pressures.
If your rifle won't make the types of groups it was designed for with full loads, then your rifle needs tuning.
When I get a new to me rifle, my first test is to lay it over the best rest I can get, then shoot five shots, at normal, slow fire speed. The barrel will be quite hot. If the group is near the one inch size, I say great, the rifle is fine. If the group is in the 3 to 4 inch class, or strings out, usually up, or up and at an angle, I just stop shooting and take the rifle home.
At home I take the stock off and examine the fit.
I may at this stage just sand out some rub marks on the wood, or I may bed it with epoxy.
I will then again test it at the range.Some times one session will fix it, sometimes it will need further tweaking.
When it shoots five into a nice little, round group, I will build up my load, to see what is a safe level of loading. When I arrive at that loading, that is it. That is my load. It will be as consistently accurate as any load I can devise.
