Powder identification help

Betty-Lou

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Hey guys, I'm trying to identify this powder that is out of Hornady .223 55gr ZombieMax load. The charge weighs 24.3 gr and the box list the velocity at 3240. The only powder that I have that physically resembles it is HS-6 and it looks identical but obviously isn't the powder. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I'm thinking something along H335 but I don't have any on hand to compare.
Thanks for the help.
 

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Hey guys, I'm trying to identify this powder that is out of Hornady .223 55gr ZombieMax load. The charge weighs 24.3 gr and the box list the velocity at 3240. The only powder that I have that physically resembles it is HS-6 and it looks identical but obviously isn't the powder. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I'm thinking something along H335 but I don't have any on hand to compare.
Thanks for the help.

donot go there unless you have a lab at your disposal....lots of good powders out there and data to go with it good luck
 
Its obviously a ball powder so Quickload could be useful to pic something close. Any idea what the barrel length is of the Hornady ammo data? I could run some sims. What’s the bullet weight? OAL?
 
Ammo factories seldom use standard canister grade powders. So you can't compare powder looks or weight, they use custom blends and large one off lots that they adjust in their ballistics labs to the velocity / pressure that meet their specs.
 
Ammo factories seldom use standard canister grade powders. So you can't compare powder looks or weight, they use custom blends and large one off lots that they adjust in their ballistics labs to the velocity / pressure that meet their specs.

From what I’ve read was they use a program similar to quickload. I’ve had very accurate results with using quickload to predict pressure and fps with Canada Ammos OEM grade 4064 and 4198. Just had to calibrate the powder burn rate.

As far as regular canister grade powders go it’s really even easier to use quickload to accurately predict loads using only ball powders to guess a similar load.

I recently did this with some 6.5x55 Swiss Hornady ammo. Given it was ball powder I was able to achieve a similar load to Hornady’s SST hunting ammo using Winchester 760. I never stocked that powder before but it worked as predicted by quickload.
 
I was out at the range and this happened........


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Jeez fellas, I'm not asking for experimental powders or some magic mix of powders. I want to know what powders match the physical description of the powder shown, are compatible with the load stated and are commercially available. It may not be available to the public, but maybe it is.
The group pictured above is with the Hornady factory load, which is why I'm interested in trying to replicate it.
 

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OP, the load you mention is one of the most common loads for several powders in the burning range you mention such as H335. It would be a safe load for that powder and bullet weight.

I have never used ZombieMax ammo but your mentioned velocity isn't difficult to achieve with several different ball powders, including BLC2, H335 to name a few.

HS-6 is way to fast and is intended as a PISTOL/SHOTGUN/Cast Bullet powder.

I'm just about willing to bet your cartridge was loaded with a commercial double base BALL POWDER that isn't normally available to hand loaders. Not all BALL powder is spherical because some of it has been rolled to slightly flatten it for whatever reason.

Let me give you an example. A few years ago there was a lot of Chinese Ball ammo released onto the surplus market in 223rem(5.56Nato). I pulled 50 bullets from the cases so that I could measure the powder charges, bullet weight, case weight and check case capacities with water. Other than a few off center primer flash holes they were extremely consistent. Less than .20 grains of powder weight variation for an average of 24.5 grains of powder. The bullets were even closer in weight. The cases were as consistent as any commercial brass. The velocities over my chrony were around 3200FPS. That velocity could easily be duplicated with that weight of H335 or another "surplus" powder being sold by Higginson's at the time.

Check your burn rate charts and go onto the internet to look at the descriptions of powder types. The Lyman manuals has a pretty good description of shape and lists those shapes in the powders section of their manual.

I so often see folks here that instantly shut down when it comes to making decisions as to powders. Mostly it's because they DON'T DO ANY DUE DILIGENCE. It isn't that difficult. Most of the information is there to extrapolate what you're looking for.

You made a good start but now you are asking us to make a decision for you. OK I can understand that you might be asking for some guidance. Fine.

Don't make an assumption on physical appearance. The reasons are self explanatory when you read the manuals and understand how burn rates happen and why they are fairly consistent. Just understand that consistency varies from lot to lot. Sometimes by quite a bit. That's why I don't buy powder by the pound or part containers of opened powder. Also If I have to purchase several one pound cans of the same powder and the lot numbers on the cans are different I pour them all together and mix them into ONE large lot. That way I can be sure my powder charge will be fairly consistent in performance, rather than get a sudden change from a different lot. This works very well when you have to replenish your stock. If you have gotten down to around a third of what you like to have on hand, say ten or twelve pounds, pick up another keg and mix it with what's left of the last batch. It will still be SAFE to use your already established load as a starting point and very likely won't require any tweaking.

Now if any of what I've mentioned makes you UNCOMFORTABLE, err on the side of CAUTION and don't do it. I've salvaged a lot of powder by blending powder with the same designation, made by the same manufacturer. It isn't often that two lots of powder will be identical. Sometimes powder with the same description on the can will be made in a different country or factory than the next lot. Still they will be similar enough to be safe, unless your loads are at maximum or over.

Litigation is what keeps manufacturers in line. I don't blame them one bit for being excessively cautious. Delving into hand loads without doing any due diligence is a recipe for disaster.

You can't tell what any powder is just by looking at it because the same manufacturing processes are used to give it the shape it has. It's the coatings on the outside that determine burn rate for the most part. By having a velocity, combined with a bullet weight tells you a lot and allows you to go to a MANUAL for comparisons to deduce similarities with other powders for that cartridge component combination.
 
I'm confused, why not just work up a load for the 55gr V-Max bullet and go from there? It's the exact same bullet just with a green tip vs red (as far as I'm aware). Seems like the safer bet to me vs trying to match powder via physical description as others have discussed already.

Just going through my western powders manual.
All data is for the 55gr vmax 223 loads

Ramshot X-terminator: min 21.2gr @ 2936fps max 23.5gr @ 3209fps
Accurate 2230: same data as above.
Accurate 2520: min 23.0gr @ 2034fps. Max 25.6gr @3207fps

Only other listings I can find in my manuals for higher velocity than that is loading to 556 NATO specifications. If that's the case, 3240fps seems easy.

Verify this info yourself before using it.
 
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Betty-Lou

With my 5.56 AR15 carbine with a 16 inch barrel I was getting 2840 fps avg with 25.0 grains of H335 using a MagnetoSpeed chronograph.

The problem is most test data published is using a 26 inch barrel and we do not know the throat length. Meaning my 5.56 AR15 has a .0500 throat length and the SAAMI standard is .0250 throat length and would change the pressure and velocity.

If you want I will take photos of my H335 and W748 but you must promise to buy a impact hammer or any bullet puller that doesn't damage a perfectly good bullet. :bangHead:

Below a Zombie Max target, for "undamaged bullets". :evil:

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Below the far left green bar is factory .223 ammunition at a chamber pressure just below 50,000 psi. And the .223 and M193 5.56 are rated at 55,000 psi, meaning the factory .223 ammo is loaded to a lower pressure below the max rated pressure. On top of this you can also see how the longer throat length of military 5.56 rifles effects pressure and velocity.

Bottom line, the powder in your photo may be a non-standard grade powder not commercially sold to reloaders. The military likes double base ball powders because it can be recycled and used again. Meaning the recycled powder may have come from a solid rocket propellant engine or any recycled military ammunition.

5.56 vs .223 – What You Know May Be Wrong
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223/

barnes-pressure.png


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As stated, the factory does not use a canister powder. The power factory makes powder in steps of speed, and only a few of those steps are sold as canister grade.

I used to use a lot of Win 755 ( a bit faster than 760) for 80 gr bullets in a 223.)

Two powders to try that would be similar to what the factory used would be H335 and 748. 748 would be my choice, if I wanted velocity.
 
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