Powder mixup - H4895 and 4064

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So I made a huge mistake... I had a freshly opened 1lb container of H4895 which was open on my loading benching while I was reloading. I ended up putting 45 grains of 4064 into the jug of 4895! Don't ask how it happened because it was a dumb ass move on my part... needless to say Im usually not that reckless and Ive been beating myself up over it for a while now.

I use the 4064 and the 4895 for loading 6.5x55 into my ag42b... Both work fine but Im on the edge about using the powder now. Its 7000 grains to a pound and 45 grains of 4064 were added so its a minimal amount in the overall, roughly .64%

So what would you do? Toss it out or keep reloading with it?

This load data is from the Hodgson website for a 140 grain bullet...

IMR

IMR 4064

.264"

3.030"


Starting

35.0 grns

2,394

39,500 CUP


Max

38.0 grns

2,563

45,800 CUP






Hodgdon

H4895

.264"

3.030"


Staring

32.5 grns

2,305

38,100 CUP


Max

35.8 grns

2,493

45,700
 
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LOL, you're kidding, right? .64% is probably less than the lot-to-lot difference. You might not win BR competition with that pound of powder, but it's fine for everyday use.

You could mix these 2 powders 50/50 and still the end result wouldn't be any more dangerous than either one of them. Might shoot like crap but wouldn't blow up in your face any more than either of them.

If you're really that worried, mix it all with another pound or 2 of 4895 so the ratio becomes homeopathic, but really, there's no reason not to use that powder.
 
Shake and carry on. The two powders are actually the same powder that has been extruded and cut differently. They are basically interchangeable.

INTERESTING!
I knew they are similar burn rate but didn't know they are the same powder...
Thanks
 
They are not the same powder, H4895 is made in Australia and IMR-4064 is made in Canada and have different burn rates.
I made a similar mistake and flushed the powder down the toilet. The reloading manuals tell you to "never" mix powders for a good reason.
The weight and size of the different powder kernels may cause them to settle and separate in the can and powder hopper.

Burn%20Rate%20Chart.jpg


I'm sorry Ganderite but its better to be safe than sorry and my face is worth more than a pound of powder.

My 2 cents and I'm a cheap bastard.
 
I have the IMR factory spec sheets that show the powder formulations, coatings, and extrusions sizes.

When the Expro factory (Canada) made these powders, they started with the same dough and the only difference was how they extruded and cut the powder.

There is no test in the word good enough to detect a slight mix of these two powders. Even if the powders were mixed 50-50, I doubt that test could see the difference.

If later versions are made in other factories, that does not change the fact that the two powders are about the same speed and mixing them is of no consequence.
 
Ganderite,
How does the chemistry change between different powders?

Single base (Nitrocellulose only) versus Double base (NC plus Nitroglycerine) is easy enough to understand.
But what makes one single base burn faster than another?
Shape? (stick, flake, ball, flattened ball, etc)
Size of grains? (Definitely so for black powder, with Fg FFg FFFg and FFFFg)
Surface coating like flame retardants etc?
Or is there something in the chemistry itself? So not all NC "dough" is created equal...?

And how similar or different is the Can. IMR 4895 to the Aussie H4895?

Thanks.
 
I have the IMR factory spec sheets that show the powder formulations, coatings, and extrusions sizes.

When the Expro factory (Canada) made these powders, they started with the same dough and the only difference was how they extruded and cut the powder.

There is no test in the word good enough to detect a slight mix of these two powders. Even if the powders were mixed 50-50, I doubt that test could see the difference.

If later versions are made in other factories, that does not change the fact that the two powders are about the same speed and mixing them is of no consequence.

Ganderite, Hodgdons H4895 is faster burning than IMR-4895 and IMR-4064 is slower burning than both. What your saying is it would also be OK to mix H332 and H335 because they are the same and they are not. H4895 is a Australian modified extreme powder and not the same mixture as the older Dupont IMR series powders. And is the size of the powder kernel and its deterrent coatings that control its burn rate.

69. Hodgdon H4895
70. VihtaVuori N530
71. IMR IMR-4895
72. VihtaVuori N135
73. Alliant Reloder 12
74. IMR IMR-4320
75. Accurate Arms 2495BR
76. IMR IMR-4064

The powders are not the same, the IMR-4064 kernels are larger and have more deterrent coatings to make the powder burn slower. And the smaller lighter kernels of H4895 will separate in the powder hopper and end up on top. Bottom line I will never understand why anyone would give out any type of bad advice when there are so many mistakes that can be made mixing powders. And on top of this there are too many new reloaders starting out who could turn this advice into a disaster.

And even if you could mix the powders evenly the burn rate would be between H4895 and IMR-4064 if your lucky and not be the same. And on top of this the Australian H4895 has a different chemical composition than the older IMR-series powders.

Powdergrainsizecomparison.jpg
 
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BigEd51 Assuming that everything you say is correct - so what?

The powders are similar and the resulting mixture will work just fine. The difference (which would not be measurable) would be far less than the difference between lot numbers and less than the change in speed of a can of powder over the time it gets used.

I once obtained a large quantity of rifle ball powder that had been contaminated with ball pistol powder. (Remember the CBC ammo recall?)

I mixed the powder up in garbage cans, so it was uniform and used it to load commercial ammo. the powder and ammo was tested by our gov't labs and OKd for sale.

Compared to that exercise, some 4064 in 4895 is nothing. Really.
 
It's not the same powder but it's not gonna make any difference. OP could downcharge or upcharge by 0.64% and probably not see much of a difference outside of benchrest, let alone change that proportion of one powder for another one that's so close on the chart. And even if he loads his ammo to H4895 maximum load and ends up with 100% 4064 powder in his case, he still got less than maximum. So basically, he could have 100% 4064 in his 4895 bottle and all it would do is a weirdly slow round, not a blow-up-in-your-face round, even at maximum charge.

FYI: larger kernels get on top, not the smaller ones.

OP: don't throw out an almost-perfectly good pound of powder.
 
Ganderite,
How does the chemistry change between different powders?

Single base (Nitrocellulose only) versus Double base (NC plus Nitroglycerine) is easy enough to understand.
But what makes one single base burn faster than another?
Shape? (stick, flake, ball, flattened ball, etc)
Size of grains? (Definitely so for black powder, with Fg FFg FFFg and FFFFg)
Surface coating like flame retardants etc?
Or is there something in the chemistry itself? So not all NC "dough" is created equal...?

And how similar or different is the Can. IMR 4895 to the Aussie H4895?

Thanks.

Single base powders vary in speed by deterrent coatings and kernel shape. DNT (not to be confused with its cousin "TNT") is probably the most common deterrent, but there are others, and sometimes more than one is used. The thickness of the coating controls the initial burn rate.

Think of a large kernel of powder like a log. It burns from the outside in. Initially, the large surface is burning, giving off a lot of gas. As the log gets smaller, the surface area is smaller, so less gas is generated.

Now consider the needs of the cartridge. Initially the powder is confined to the case, and the bullet is stuck in the case neck. The last thing you need is the full surface area of all the powder burning at full tilt. hence the deterrent, to slow it down.

Once the bullet starts moving, the volume behind the bullet gets larger, dropping pressure, so ideally you want the powder to start burning faster, to make up for the increased volume. Over the first inch or two, that happens. as the burn speeds up as the deterrent layer is burned off.

Then the bullet is rapidly moving down the barrel, dropping pressure, and the kernel surface is getting smaller, generating less and less gas. This is not good.

A well designed powder is progressive. That is, it burns faster and faster, not slower and slower. Deterrents help, and also the kernels have a hole tough them. Think of a fire log with a 1" hole drilled end to end. The kernel surface burns on the inside, too, and this increases the burning surface as it burns, helping to offset the outside surface getting smaller.

If you start with a vat of powder dough and extrude it in two sizes (larger diameter and length - as in 4895 and 4064) the larger chunk powder will burn slightly slower. This can be modified by changing the deterrent treatments.

Once upon a time I convinced a powder company that they should try short cutting some 4831 so that it would meter better. They did not know what a powder thrower was, so had no idea about metering characteristics. (They were chemists - not shooters.) They made up a test batch of shortcut 4831 and two other powders. (4895 and 4064).

The powders were tests in the lab (pressure gun) and the boss phoned me to report the tests were a total failure. The results of the shortcut powders were identical to the regular version.

I tried to explain that if the results were identical they should immediately switch over to the short cut version. They refused to see any advantage. They gave me the short cut 4895 (about 900 pounds) and scrapped the rest. I still have some of it.

One of the limitations of ball powder is that the surface area gets smaller as it burns, so it relies much more on deterrents to control the initial burn rate.

A double or triple base powder can have more energy, usually at the cost of higher flame temperatures, which speeds up throat erosion.

The chemist can use the composition of the dough, the size and shape of kernels, the size of the internal hole in extruded powders, and the thickness and composition of deterrents to control the end result.

I have seen powder that looked like fly sh!t and other kernels the size of ping pong balls.
 
Ganderite, just out of curiousity, in your experienced opinion how much more 4064 would he have to mix in before you wouldn't use the 1lb?
 
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