Practical advantage of K98 over 91/30

tokguy said:
Mauser action most popular with hunters and building rifles on!
Mauser is still in business today!
Do they still make Nagants!
P14 and M1917 copied Mauser action!

I've an WW1 K98, a Husky sporter 98, and a full dress 96 Swede.
Also a M-44 and an M-39...(between 91/30's at the moment).
The Russian logic is about simplicity and I tend to side with them on this issue.
Mauser is a fine piece of engineering..so is the Ross. But in the hands of an average conscripted or drafted soldier; I'd say a Mosin Nagant or Lee Enfield is a much more apt tool.
Going to have to say Mosin Nagant is the rifle with which to equip an army of yesteryear; substitute a Lee Enfield if you are talking about commonwealth soldiers.
Yes in skilled hands a Mauser is a vastly superior rifle...skilled hands. Many draftee's or conscripts are not 'Skilled Hands'
I'm betting a Mosin will keep throwing bullets longer even in less skilled hands...a Mauser; I'm thinking the dummy factor would limit it's effective usage in the field.
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The cold also limits the Mauser as the generous Mosin Nagant trigger gaurd allows for use with a well gloved hand.
I would hazzard to guess that the complicated firing group on the mauser may also limit its cold weather use. Modern sealed trigger groups,after market trigger gaurds and frictionless coated parts solve this.
 
My biggest problem with this discussion is the fact that the K98 is like the Garand of bolt guns in the people who collect them are VERY dedicated and will spend huge bucks to get what they want. There's a certain amount of allure to carry the rifle of the enemy and thus there is a huge following for that rifle. Also the k98 rifle is probably the only rifle that has such a following of people who know every waffenampt etc.

Mosins on the other hand are cheap and plentiful on today's surplus market so they are not in vogue. I once thought that they were cheap simply because they were poorly made and inaccurate. I've since learned that isn't the case. I also know through testing that a mosin can spend all day in -30 and still shoot a nice tight group.

I think at the end of the day if you line up 10 milsurp collectors you will get 10 different answers on which rifle they would want to carry into battle.

In my head I always think "what's more important, accuracy, reliability, or a blend of both??" Having a rifle that loads quickly and won't jam the rounds in the magazine is pretty important. But here in the Canadian prairies having a rifle that will last through winter after winter may be more important when you're under fire and she's all frozen up??

I wish I had my 98 here as I'd love to do a head to head test in a -30 winter setting.

Could be interesting!!
 
Tinman204 said:
Mosins on the other hand are cheap and plentiful on today's surplus market so they are not in vogue. I once thought that they were cheap simply because they were poorly made and inaccurate. I've since learned that isn't the case. I also know through testing that a mosin can spend all day in -30 and still shoot a nice tight group.
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Yup I agree completely. One day they will dry up just like every other milsurp rifle before it, and people will feel differently about them. I'm not a big Mosin guy, but I do have one of the recent PU snipers sitting in the safe and a crate load of ammo. Looking forward to a warm spring do get the scope mount properly zeroed.
 
MauserMike said:
The Mosin while utilitarian and reliable has a number of issues that came up in its long military service.

The 91/30 is just plain too long compared to a carbine. I think its more than just a matter of taste in the type combat in WWII, but Russian troops made it work. The rifle is even longer with the bayonet mounted, which is pretty much required to put shots on target.

The safety really isn't very useful on the Mosin, nor is it as safe as the Mauser design which truly blocks the striker.

The bolt release on the Mosin, or lack thereof. Because of the safety issue, troops usually carried the rifle with a round unchambered and with the safety off. When slung up, if the trigger got hung up on anything, the bolt would fall out. Imagine going into battle only to discover you don't have a bolt in your rifle.
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The safety on the Mosin is the "safest " of most any design. You completely disconnect the cocking knob from the bolt (for all intents and purposes). It is however hard to manipulate for a small stature person.
 
MauserMike said:
Yup I agree completely. One day they will dry up just like every other milsurp rifle before it, and people will feel differently about them. I'm not a big Mosin guy, but I do have one of the recent PU snipers sitting in the safe and a crate load of ammo. Looking forward to a warm spring do get the scope mount properly zeroed.
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So you mean if something is more expensive it doesn't mean it's better??:)
 
I'd still take an Enfield over either of them, just throwing it out there.....
I don't have a full military K98 to compare to the Mosin, just a mid war sporter with a target barrel. (1943 IIRC) the 98's bolt is a little easier to manipulate but I've noticed my earlier hex receiver Mosin is a lot smoother than the two wartime models I own. Safety on the Mauser is definitely easier to use, trigger's been polished so it's hard to compare but I have a Mosin that went at least 15 lbs (possibly more, almost couldn't get the bolt out) on the pull, pretty awful if they were like that before mismatch refurb time.
All in all I'd give a slight edge to the Mauser based on niceties and ease of use, but the Russian gun had one big advantage over it. Production. The gun is simple enough that they could crank them out by the millions without much cost/time saving cuts. Compare a wartime Mosin, with some rough machining on the barrel and a lack of polishing to the late war K98's, half the rifle they were in 1939. Rough castings, the bayonet becomes a moot point because they stopped installing the lug, sights got worse, etc...
 
Happy New Year Dave!! Each rifle has it's own advantages. I picked up my hex Mosin from you! I admit that I am biased, I love Mausers. A bent bolt K98 definitely has more leverage for #### on opening. Like Claven2, I lprefer the large, robust extractor on the Mauser and the control feed of the Mauser. Though my best shooter is my straight bolt 1901 Carl Gustaf M96 Swedish Mauser (though it is #### on close). It's contemporary would be the Mosin M91. Compairing the two would be like comparing a scalpel and a machete IMO.
 
I agree,

The k98 and mosin are far down my list. The Lee enfield is superior to both in my opinion. Then there's the K31, not battle proven but it's a cold weather gun, I'd bet my life on it.

Swede mausers are way more accurate, and of course the Ross drives nails and through my own usage takes the cold weather well.

the ability to manipulate the trigger with gloves on is huge for me because I have a condition called "sausage fingers". Combine sausage fingers with gloves and it get very hard to fit my finger in the trigger gaurd.

That may not be of importance to those of you who are blessed enough to live in warm climates but here on the prairies you either shoot when its -30 all winter or shooting is a summer sport only.
 
^^^ I just picked up a set of Army surplus snowshoes so I'm not trapped inside all winter! We'll see just how this K31 does in the cold! Maybe the SMLE too if I get my full stock fixed up before spring! Jeez snow's deep already. :)
 
So after reading all the responses I can say, in my opinion there is exactly zero differences in practicality of the two. Anyways I must go clean up my beautiful laminate 91/30. ;)
 
I currently own and have owned various pre-war/war time Kar98k's and Mosins of various types. Deciding the merits of either design by individual surplus rifles isn't at all a fair test. That being said, another thing to keep in mind when comparing "accuracy" is that a majority of Soviet 91/30's that are shot regularly in Canada are being done so with surplus ammo and Mosin's of questionable bore condition. As both a Kar98k and 91/30 owner, I find myself shooting either reloads or factory 8mm through my Mausers, and surplus 7.62x54r out of my Mosins due simple to convenience and cost. That being said - I have both a non refurb 1939 Kar98 and a non refurb 1939 91/30 with roughly equal bore conditions and reloads for both - perhaps a fun, unscientific test would be in order (would be fun anyway).

I find the tiny blade front sight on the Mauser to be very fine and have trouble shooting in lower light conditions or against smaller targets (even on those with a sight hood). The large post and globe of the 91/30's I find easier to acquire, and would imagine in any sort of field conditions to be beneficial over the Kar98.

A lot has been said about the length of the 91/30 - especially with the bayonet attached. I have to agree with this being the major detractor of the Mosin over the Kar98. With the bayonet mounted, as was both doctrine and somewhat required for sighting purposes, the 91/30 is bloody long. Further to this, the Mosin safety in a pain. After speaking with some Red Army vets in both St. Petersburg and Moscow this past summer at various museums, it seemed as though the safety wasn't really used much. As for the mention of soldiers carrying the rifle with the bolt unlocked and open - where did you hear this other then the single reference in a translated video? I have never seen pictures/video's/ or accounts of this from anyone I've spoken to. I'm not saying it wasn't done (far from it - what do I know about what the X million Soviet troops did?), but I really can't see it being a widespread thing.

In terms of reliability, all of our opinions I would imagine are fairly mute as I'd imagine most of us use our rifles either on a range during the day or in a hunting type scenario, and thus cannot attest to "combat reliability".
 
OK so your dating two girls with the idea of choosing one to marry.
Both can cook. Both have money and both have a very agreeable disposition. One is beautiful and the other down right ugly. Which are you going to choose.
 
I am a mosin man but for my first milsurp match shoot I took a k98. Why you ask? One of the events was timed & I wanted to be sure I was not going to have an issue loading my rifle from stripper clips. I have since used a mosin & the same match & it worked fine. Either way, the target looked the same so in real terms, there is no difference.
 
Rumpelhardt said:
OK so your dating two girls with the idea of choosing one to marry.
Both can cook. Both have money and both have a very agreeable disposition. One is beautiful and the other down right ugly. Which are you going to choose.
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What was that song? 'If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life, make an ugly woman your wife'? I have four Mosins at the moment, I must be a Mormon when it comes to guns...
 
I don't see a practical advantage of a K98 over a 91/30 because of the fact that a K98
can't be silent-cocked on a loaded chamber. I much prefer a rifle with an exposed hammer
or hand graspable cocking piece for my type of shootin'.

That said though, I sure wish I'd kept my 1935 Brazilian Oberndorf 7x57 cause it shot so sweet.:)
 
Tinman204 said:
I agree,

The k98 and mosin are far down my list. The Lee enfield is superior to both in my opinion. Then there's the K31, not battle proven but it's a cold weather gun, I'd bet my life on it.

Swede mausers are way more accurate, and of course the Ross drives nails and through my own usage takes the cold weather well.

the ability to manipulate the trigger with gloves on is huge for me because I have a condition called "sausage fingers". Combine sausage fingers with gloves and it get very hard to fit my finger in the trigger gaurd.

That may not be of importance to those of you who are blessed enough to live in warm climates but here on the prairies you either shoot when its -30 all winter or shooting is a summer sport only.
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Correct about K31 and cold weather.


 
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