look at all those rifle sold with 1moa garantied but the shooter have a hard time getting 1.5” at 100… I think that there is lots of rifles out there that are capable of 1moa but not many shooter/hunters out there that can make it happen! People don’t shoot enough and only shoot when it is ideal conditions! What the rifle is capable of doing and what the shooter can a hive with that rifle is two different things imo!
Practical Hunting Field Accuracy: Is sub-MOA Rifle Accuracy a Benefit in Hunting?
- Thread starter South Pender
- Start date
look at all those rifle sold with 1moa garantied but the shooter have a hard time getting 1.5” at 100… I think that there is lots of rifles out there that are capable of 1moa but not many shooter/hunters out there that can make it happen! People don’t shoot enough and only shoot when it is ideal conditions! What the rifle is capable of doing and what the shooter can a hive with that rifle is two different things imo!
Yes, absolutely. I think many shooters think that, if they shoot one 3- or 5-shot MOA group, that means their rifle is a 1 MOA rifle. That one MOA group may have been one group out of many shot, with all the others larger than 1 MOA. To properly assess a rifle's accuracy, I believe that you need to shoot at least 5 (better still, 10) consecutive 5-shot groups and compute the average group size. ("Consecutive" is important in this context; shooting 10 or 12 groups and taking the best 5 won't cut it.) That average group size can be used to characterize the rifle's accuracy. This is the standard used by the NRA in the rifle tests they publish in the American Rifleman.
coleman1495
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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- Whitecourt
I’ve shot a deer in a circumstance where sub moa was critical to make a responsible shot.
That was an unusual situation though.
Totally depends on your hunting style.
That was an unusual situation though.
Totally depends on your hunting style.
- Location
- Blaster land, Okanagan BC
While I agree with you, the flip side is that a lot of us spend all year hunting something or another. When I sight in for spring bear or fall deer etc I only shoot off the bench. The rest of the season while hunting I shoot everything off hand, slung up tight, or from a knee. If I have something to use as a rest, crotch of a tree or fence post I use it.
Everything from my .22’s to shotguns for small game and whatever I grab for large game, so I shoot more in the field than I likely do from a bench sighting in. I sight in off bags because I want to eliminate any human error I can, which is one less thing I have to think about when I got to shoot something. I def shoot my big game rifles more than some so that helps as well, time and repetition is the only way to get comfortable with a rifle. If it doesn’t shoot 1.5” or better I’m likely not going to hunt with it, I prefer a rifle that’s inherently accurate.
I reload almost all my ammo for at least 20 calibers. I aim for top accuracy and consistency at the range. That way, when my heart is beating 150 bpm, and I have a crappy field rest with a moose at 300 yds, the variable of poor ammo is removed from the equation. This leaves my scope, rifle, the weather or me to blame for my bad shot or praise for a good one. Hunting accuracy is harder due to improvised rests of variable help. Plus nerves detract often. Success often means controlling what you can, and if your reloads shave 2-3" from your group at 300 yards, then its worth it.
100%, awesome post from experience in both.
Also, there’s another variable not mentioned yet in the thread. The live animal factor. Reading game, the situation. So many have learned that there’s a balance out there in tof (time of flight...live animal), personal field accuracy limitations, and environmental (mostly wind)...even if they can’t verbalize it. And even in the crowds that do lots of prs or other precision competitive shooting it’s recognized that 450 a pretty reliable soft limit for most respectable shooters for hunting consistency, and a moderate amount will be solid to 600, and very few are consistent killers past 600.
If you understand all this you can boil down not only the gear and set-up better suited to hunting but also the practice and prep. A lot of guys seem to get lost there and go haywire in competition and gear suited to doing things way past where hunting is actually gonna happen. It can work against you. Preparing for the wrong thing thinking you’re preparing for the right thing.
So it doesn’t really matter if you’re a quarter minute champ at the range and drag your 12 lb ffp mil whatever to the field and can rock 600-1000 yard stages on 12” steel squares in teams etc. Not hard to go well past the point of diminishing returns and down rabbit holes that won’t help ya for hunting. Easy to over train the wrong direction, easy to get lost down rabbit holes chasing precision.
A guy with a simple set up who’s done enough of the right kind of practice who’s all about that field time and hunting will do every bit as good if not better than the range star. As said...two completely different animals.
You don’t send sighters on game, you generally don’t have a pal over your shoulder calling your dope and wind when hunting. If you can shoot 3 shot moa groups in field conditions to 75% of your intended limits then that’s good. You’re better off confirming zero, cold bore first shots, and practicing some actual field positions to have confidence leading into a season than anything else. Not a ton of shooting is required to get that confidence either. And always hunt on a fouled barrel, put one in the ditch on the way if you must.
Coincidentally as I’ve looked at the tof relationship between archery and rifles the limits end up similar for either hunters. 1/2 to 3/4 second time of flights about the outer limit for majority. That’s 50-70 yards bow or 450-600 yards bang stick give or take. You get the point.
If you understand all this you can boil down not only the gear and set-up better suited to hunting but also the practice and prep. A lot of guys seem to get lost there and go haywire in competition and gear suited to doing things way past where hunting is actually gonna happen. It can work against you. Preparing for the wrong thing thinking you’re preparing for the right thing.
So it doesn’t really matter if you’re a quarter minute champ at the range and drag your 12 lb ffp mil whatever to the field and can rock 600-1000 yard stages on 12” steel squares in teams etc. Not hard to go well past the point of diminishing returns and down rabbit holes that won’t help ya for hunting. Easy to over train the wrong direction, easy to get lost down rabbit holes chasing precision.
A guy with a simple set up who’s done enough of the right kind of practice who’s all about that field time and hunting will do every bit as good if not better than the range star. As said...two completely different animals.
You don’t send sighters on game, you generally don’t have a pal over your shoulder calling your dope and wind when hunting. If you can shoot 3 shot moa groups in field conditions to 75% of your intended limits then that’s good. You’re better off confirming zero, cold bore first shots, and practicing some actual field positions to have confidence leading into a season than anything else. Not a ton of shooting is required to get that confidence either. And always hunt on a fouled barrel, put one in the ditch on the way if you must.
Coincidentally as I’ve looked at the tof relationship between archery and rifles the limits end up similar for either hunters. 1/2 to 3/4 second time of flights about the outer limit for majority. That’s 50-70 yards bow or 450-600 yards bang stick give or take. You get the point.
One of Litz's book covers the OP's topic pretty hard. He has a program that's called WEZ (weapon employment zone), you can plug in a slew of variables (rifle precision, range, target size, wind calling ability/variability) and it'll punch out a number giving you your statistical likelihood of connecting. The long and the short is that unless you are shooting at very small targets a ways out (which are already statistically low probability shots to begin with) that you hit the point of diminishing returns (in terms of rifle precision) pretty hard at 1 moa. There's obviously no downside to a more precise rifle but it doesn't get you much more in terms of hit probability.
Now in terms of field accuracy, it mostly comes down to having a very good understanding of your accuracy capability with the particular system that you're using in the particular positions/situations that you're most likely to use where you're hunting. You can easily practice for this at the range by shooting paper at 100 yds. A buddy of mine came up with the Kraft drill (it's pretty well known in PRS/practical precision rifle circles) where you essentially shoot 3 rounds in each position (standing, kneeling, seated, prone) at a diamond target with concentric diamonds going from 1-6 moa or so. It's since been refined to 4 different diamonds, one for each position. Regardless, you can do it on any target. The point is, you get a very good idea (if you shoot the drill often) of what your accuracy capability is in each of those positions. Whether you do it supported positional, unsupported, off a tripod, whatever doesn't really matter, it just allows you to know how accurate you are with your rifle in that position. When you combine whatever that group size is with the knowledge of how much your bullet will be moved per mph of wind at each range and how well you can call the wind on average (2mph, 3mph, 5mph?) you can start making really educated decisions on what is or is not, an ethical shot. Obviously other factors come into play as well such as backdrop and terrain (if the deer runs, will I be able to see where?) but from the standpoint of knowing your capabilities, positional shooting at paper targets at 100 can pay huge dividends.
Now in terms of field accuracy, it mostly comes down to having a very good understanding of your accuracy capability with the particular system that you're using in the particular positions/situations that you're most likely to use where you're hunting. You can easily practice for this at the range by shooting paper at 100 yds. A buddy of mine came up with the Kraft drill (it's pretty well known in PRS/practical precision rifle circles) where you essentially shoot 3 rounds in each position (standing, kneeling, seated, prone) at a diamond target with concentric diamonds going from 1-6 moa or so. It's since been refined to 4 different diamonds, one for each position. Regardless, you can do it on any target. The point is, you get a very good idea (if you shoot the drill often) of what your accuracy capability is in each of those positions. Whether you do it supported positional, unsupported, off a tripod, whatever doesn't really matter, it just allows you to know how accurate you are with your rifle in that position. When you combine whatever that group size is with the knowledge of how much your bullet will be moved per mph of wind at each range and how well you can call the wind on average (2mph, 3mph, 5mph?) you can start making really educated decisions on what is or is not, an ethical shot. Obviously other factors come into play as well such as backdrop and terrain (if the deer runs, will I be able to see where?) but from the standpoint of knowing your capabilities, positional shooting at paper targets at 100 can pay huge dividends.
Thumbs up on this one. This forum needs updating to allow some thumbs up action. The right kind of practice is far more important than competition or high volume shooting that isn’t related.
Another good trainer is coyotes. You can do it most of the year and no tags required. You’ll learn lots about your limits from several positions hunting them. If you get good at killing them...big game will be a walk in the park up to a couple hundred yards further. Some prefer to break up the steel work with coyotes.��
Love the 100 yard paper ideas here. That allows more people to do the right kind of practice with less gear or land access.
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Coyotes - Yes. But don't forget gophers. Gophers are great practice, and if you can hit a gopher at 200 with your hunting rifle, a deer at 300 is pretty easy.....although right now, that's pretty pricey target practice.
Chased groups enough with 7mm magnum type cartridges to realize the only thing I was doing was wearing out barrels to keep the accuracy up and having to re barrel enough times to find out the waste of time it was. And it doesn’t take long for a load to not work anymore 150 ish rounds and would have to start all over again.
Seen it on this site often enough, hunting rifles that aren't even sighted bragging about a group.
What ever makes a guy happy I suppose but happiness won’t last long for the most part if you shoot lots.
All and all a inch and a half rifle will kill big game a longs way out…
Seen it on this site often enough, hunting rifles that aren't even sighted bragging about a group.
What ever makes a guy happy I suppose but happiness won’t last long for the most part if you shoot lots.
All and all a inch and a half rifle will kill big game a longs way out…
