Pre-1899 Antique Guns FAQ

I like that make, model, serial number idea for antiques. The CFC has that info; I wonder if it is generally available?
 
It's called the "Firearms Reference Table (FRT)" list and, although we as taxpayers have paid for it, they will not release this information publicly. I don't think it's considered as classified info, but it's something they'd rather not give out to mere peasants like us. :rolleyes:

That said... I know for a fact that some people have CDs with the FRT tables, mainly people who were or still are verifiers for the CFC (because I've seen copies of the documentation out there). Now... if such a CD were to leak on the net somewhere, that would be quite nice... and useful for the rest of us. It looks like some FRTs have already leaked and are available through Google.

:popCorn:

Here are examples of an FRT Report :

http://www2.canada.com/ottawacitizen/features/rapidfire/guns/ParaOrdnance1640.PDF

http://www2.canada.com/ottawacitizen/features/rapidfire/guns/KalashnikovAK47.PDF

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=6&ved=0CD8QFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.seekersoftheredmist.com%2Fperl-bin%2Fre2.5%2FStevens.PDF%3Fop%3Dnorefresh%26download%3D65&rct=j&q=FRT%20Report&ei=i24nTcfhOMGs8AaH3aWRAQ&usg=AFQjCNGFh87Unc-qlr79NimPWR7W6INUvw&cad=rja

http://www2.canada.com/ottawacitizen/features/rapidfire/guns/Remington700.PDF


With the FRT, all you have to do is basically pick a make and model of a firearm and it will list all the possible classes of such a firearm based on production years, serial numbers and calibers. It's an all-you-need collection of info regarding guns for the RCMP. That way, theoretically, there should be no confusion as to which class of firearm they're dealing with. A copy of an FRT Report would also be very useful for importation purposes, of course (you could just stick it in the package for CBSA to read).
 
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The list in that link is cool but off by a year. Maybe we could put one together based on our experiences and research.
 
41 Colt said:
The list in that link is cool but off by a year. Maybe we could put one together based on our experiences and research.
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Ha! Yeah, that's be a good idea... in theory. A similar exercise was tried already, remember?... I made a thread here asking for models, calibers, conditions and years along with the pricing of antique guns (which was supposed to be a very comprehensive guide to all of us regarding antique guns).

The participation was almost 0... I remember you, me and a few other members actually posting what they have and/or what they know about what's antique and what the price should be (depending on conditions, of course). Besides those few, it was pretty sad and lame... many just b*tched and moaned that it's a bad idea, because of "X" reason - probably because they don't want "The Man" to know what's what, as if it were a big secret (more tin foil hat theories)! The thread eventually became more b*tching than actual useful antiques data, then it eventually died and was forgotten. For the better, I guess...

But... that's Canadian gun owners' unity for ya. Only a few participate in ANYTHING, but they all complain that they want more rights & freedoms!

There... I've said it. We all know it's true anyway... On the same note, take C-391 as an example of "participation". C-391 would've been a winner if more would've gotten off their lazy asses as well. I did, and I almost ran out of ink in my printer while doing so. Then again, some self-proclaimed gun "activists" I spoke to didn't want to know anything about it... to them, the government should "change the laws" all by itself, without letters or other efforts to help ourselves on our part. With gun owners such as these, I wish us all GOOD LUCK! (because we'll need it!)

Bottom line, don't bother. Buy a good book on antique guns and be happy. Some members here are very knowledgeable and willing to help, while others won't give you an inch despite having the knowledge that you're seeking. Unfortunately, those that do get involved are too few to ever make such a database work.

:(
 
BadLieutenant said:
It could be done......we just need people to gather the information and put it together ;)
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While we're at it, we could also start our own pro-antique-gun political party. We could be known as the "ConservAntiques".

:D


(no pun intended, but the whole idea seems kind of far fetched... like I said, it would take a huge effort of cooperation to make something like this happen and the last attempt crashed and burned miserably!)
 
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762mm said:
While we're at it, we could also start our own pro-antique-gun political party. We could be known as the "ConserAntiques".

:D


(no pun intended, but the whole idea seems kind of far fetched... like I said, it would take a huge effort of cooperation to make something like this happen and the last attempt crashed and burned miserably!)
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"If you build it, they will come!" :D
 
762mm said:
Ha! Yeah, that's be a good idea... in theory. A similar exercise was tried already, remember?... I made a thread here asking for models, calibers, conditions and years along with the pricing of antique guns (which was supposed to be a very comprehensive guide to all of us regarding antique guns).

The participation was almost 0... I remember you, me and a few other members actually posting what they have and/or what they know about what's antique and what the price should be (depending on conditions, of course). Besides those few, it was pretty sad and lame... many just b*tched and moaned that it's a bad idea, because of "X" reason - probably because they don't want "The Man" to know what's what, as if it were a big secret (more tin foil hat theories)! The thread eventually became more b*tching than actual useful antiques data, then it eventually died and was forgotten. For the better, I guess...
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I remember that, but I think the problem other than the tinfoil hat stuff was sellers have a leg up when it comes to asking price if there is no guide saying your gun is only worth ### amount.

Example: A nice Colt SAA with a good original finish and parts is worth generally $2500-$3500 up here. Now, when an old gun has been refinished and had numerous parts replaced usually it's value can decrease by half, but there are Colt SAA's in the EE that are refinished sporting new barrels & cylinders going for over $4500. Why? Because there is no guide saying your refinished and altered gun is worth $1500. If people will pay it the sellers will ask it.

Serial number information is not something subject to interpretation based on a current market trend, either a gun was made on December 31, 1897 and therefore antique or it was made on January 1, 1898 and modern. The CFC and CBSA know this, for the most part, so I doubt we would be bring any unknown information forward they could use against us.

There are websites out there stating serial numbers and manufacturing dates and a thread would simply centralize all that.
 
If someone wants to start a thread here is a bit to start with, the serial number given is the last that was made in 1897:

  • Winchester 1885 Single Shot (only certain calibers are antique) 1897 Cutoff - 78815
  • Colt 1873 Single Action Army (only certain calibers are antique) 1897 Cutoff - 174999
  • Colt 1892 Double Action New Army Navy (only certain calibers are antique) 1897 Cutoff - 91199
  • Colt 1877 Double Action Thunderer/Lightning (only certain calibers are antique) 1897 Cutoff - 107499
  • Colt 1878 Frontier (only certain calibers are antique) 1897 Cutoff - 38199
  • Colt New Line Pocket Revolvers - All are made between 1873 - 1884 so caliber will determine status

ETA: I was using http://proofhouse.com/index.htm
 
1892 French Ordinance Revolver (8mm Lebel caliber)

Ok... I'll play along. Here's the info available regarding the 1892 Lebel revolver serial numbers:

Year:-----Starting Serial Number:-----Inspector's Initials:

1892-------------F00001-----------------------PL
1894-------------F38000-----------------------ML
1894-------------F42000-----------------------MB
1897-------------F99000-----------------------MB
1897-------------G00001-----------------------JB
1900-------------G47000-----------------------LB

*Source: "Le revolver 1892: mécanisme & rechargement" by John C. Frost, Éditions Crépin-Leblond (France)
 
Swedish M1887 Husqvarna Nagant Revolver

Only 350 made in 1897*

Was told here on CGN, confirmed from a scan from a book on another forum and from the CFC technician.

(the M1887 was originaly manufactured by Nagant in Belgium and manufactured by Husqvarna in Sweden starting in 1897)
 
BadLieutenant said:
Any other member with related information? :)
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Maybe it'd be also a good idea to list all the guns that are straight antiques all the way... such as the M1879 and M1883 Reichsrevolvers (production on both finished well before 1898 and there was only one caliber: 10.6 Reichsrevolver).

Webly-Pryse + Webley MkI and MkII would also fall into the same category I believe (although the .38 versions won't qualify for antique status due to the cartridge, of course). S&W Third Model and First Model DA also qualify, unless they're chambered in .38 or 44-40. I believe that the Colt 1892 was not made past 1898 either. Then of course you also have a boatload of small pre-1898 rimfire pocket guns to include in that reference... that would surely take a good few terabytes of space to list, lol!



As for other guns, I'm having a big brain fart right now and can't think of anything else for the moment... so I guess time for me to go & grab a beer in the basement!

:D


Having said that, I would really like to know production details on the C96 Broomhandle Mausers, if anyone has the details... which, for me, is the holy grail of antiques!
 
762mm said:
I believe that the Colt 1892 was not made past 1898 either.

Having said that, I would really like to know production details on the C96 Broomhandle Mausers, if anyone has the details... which, for me, is the holy grail of antiques!
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All I know about the broomhandles is they are antique for only their first year of production, 1897.

As for the Colt you are thinking of the original 1889 variant without the indexing cylinder (although many were upgraded). The 1892, 1894, 1895 & 1896 versions ceased production in about 1909.
 
Do any members here own an antique broom handle just out of curiosity?.

I'll add to list.

PAT 1871 1873 and 1877 Forehand and Wadsworth Solid Frame Double action pocket Revolvers - .32 .38 and 41 rimfire. Production ended in 1890 so good to go on those.

Later production after 1890 was different, hex barrel instead of round and frame like H&A and H&R.

Company changed names to Forehand Arms I believe after 1890 due to retirement of Mr. Wadsworth. Hopkins and Allen bought it out in 1902.
 
Tyockell18 said:
Do any members here own an antique broom handle just out of curiosity?.

I'll add to list.

PAT 1871 1873 and 1877 Forehand and Wadsworth Solid Frame Double action pocket Revolvers - .32 .38 and 41 rimfire. Production ended in 1890 so good to go.

Company changed names to Forehand Arms I believe after 1890 due to death of Mr. Wadsworth.
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I had a minty Broomhandle but sold it. theres lists of cut off for 1898 on the web.
the gun was relisted here for months it was the best one i ever seen and a very good price for the condition + he had the orignal shoulder stock for it.
mine was in the 5000s ser #ed tho about half way i think our cut off is like 9000.

(i dont like posting cut off info in case im wrong and get someone into troble.)

you guys should tripple check your info and call cfc before you list cut offs as some new members migfht take it as fact.
CFC Change stuff all the time. the WGs were at 14000 or so but one guy got one deregistered alot higher.
Webley MKIII changed about 5 times there cut off info changes when cfc gets new info.

the Broomhandle was like shooting any well made modern SA handgun.
I put a few rounds thru it before selling it, i was very impressed there so well made never had a missfire or problem used factory fiochhi ammo.

I do prefer a 250 gr lead Keith SWC in a remy or colt revolver going like + 800 Fps than them small cal Semi Auto pray and spray type guns tho.
 
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41 Colt said:
Example: A nice Colt SAA with a good original finish and parts is worth generally $2500-$3500 up here. Now, when an old gun has been refinished and had numerous parts replaced usually it's value can decrease by half, but there are Colt SAA's in the EE that are refinished sporting new barrels & cylinders going for over $4500. Why? Because there is no guide saying your refinished and altered gun is worth $1500. If people will pay it the sellers will ask it.
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This may be the case for an original SAA in 41 Colt, although I can't really say. What I do know is how hard it was for me to find an antique Colt that was in excellent shooting condition and chambered in a heavy hitting antique cartridge like the 45 Schofield or the 44 Russian. There was nothing in my few year search that met that description up here in Canada. I eventually won an auction in the US for a restored Colt SAA, chambered in 45 Schofield, and by the time I got it home, with shipping, taxes, etc. I was already in for just over $4,000 and, I might add, I won the SAA so cheaply because it was restored so its collector's value was greatly diminished. However, when I received it, it sure looked pretty but it had serious mechanical issues with timing, worn or soldered parts, end shake and excessive gap. I did get that antique Colt SAA eventually back to superb factory tolerances with a very tight action, and I did have to replace the front sight and get the barrel re-charcoal blued. At this point, I have around $4,700 into my antique Colt SAA 45 Schofield. By the way, it is not for sale, as it is a beautiful antique Colt shooter with perfect mechanics.
 
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