precision rifle actions in Canada?

[kthomas]

Lol, more feedback from a guy with no experience with Curtis at all. Wonder why EM is getting calls to chamber the Terminus actions when Big Horn wont supply pre-fits and spare parts. Curtis has been amazing to deal with and next to no issues. Plus EM carries all the spare parts as needed on wear items.
But ya, buy a Terminus. The direct clone of a Curtis.

I have plenty of friends that have been bitten by Curtis actions. They don't shoot those actions anymore, because the quality and CS sucked. There's plenty of people on other forums as well complaining about the quality of their Curtis actions, and the poor CS that accompanies it. Even some precision rifle trainers have made comments about the quality of Curtis actions that they've seen roll through their courses. Curtis' social media presence and how they've handled all the critical feedback hasn't improved my opinion of them either, the way they and a couple of their sponsored shooters act is very unbecoming of a professional company.

There's a lot of red flags. If you choose to ignore them, that's your gamble. If you have a Curtis and are happy with it, then great, that's all that really matters. I really couldn't care less if anyone on CGN owns a Curtis or not, it's not my problem. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to recommend a Curtis action, not with what I've seen in my own shooting circles.

At least with Terminus you get the customer support. I'm personally not a fan of 60* bolt throws, but if put a gun to my head and made me choose between the two brands, I would pick Terminus just for the level of CS alone. In Canada, that's a shame that Bighorn (actually now called Zermatt Arms), isn't providing spare parts. They provide excellent CS down in the US, they are very responsive to their customers. As far as pre-fits go, any good gunsmith should be able to chamber up a pre-fit for a Zermatt in Canada, so I'm not sure why you would need one specifically from Zermatt/Bighorn anyways.

 

[BigRobb]

Bought a Nucleus last year. Not only has it seen version 1.1, but now version 2. Pretty disappointed. I get that companies should evolve and improve, but for $1600 I didn’t plan on beta testing for literally months before my action is using obsolete parts. I wasn’t all that impressed as it was. I preferred my cheaper Cadex R7 action to be honest. For that, I’ll avoid American Rifle Company and will recommend the same. As quirky and innovative as the guy is, I feel like he’ll be tweaking his current designs constantly. OCD comes to mind.

 

[Alpheus]

very unbecoming of a professional company.

Given how vocal you have been about knock-offs (Atlas, RRS etc), don't you have a problem with the Terminus Zeus being a copy of the Curtis? I noticed you didn't address that part of stevesummit's post.

 

[kthomas]

Given how vocal you have been about knock-offs (Atlas, RRS etc), don't you have a problem with the Terminus Zeus being a copy of the Curtis? I noticed you didn't address that part of stevesummit's post.

The guy who owns and runs Terminus, Joel Russo, designed the Curtis actions. He left Curtis because he didn't agree with how Chase Curtis was running the company, so he split off to have his own company, to make his actions with the quality, QA/QC and CS that he thought his design deserved.

It's not a knock-off as it was his design in the first place.

 

[Alpheus]

It's not a knock-off as it was his design in the first place.

So Joel Russo owns the patent/IP for the design?

 

[kthomas]

Bought a Nucleus last year. Not only has it seen version 1.1, but now version 2. Pretty disappointed. I get that companies should evolve and improve, but for $1600 I didn’t plan on beta testing for literally months before my action is using obsolete parts. I wasn’t all that impressed as it was. I preferred my cheaper Cadex R7 action to be honest. For that, I’ll avoid American Rifle Company and will recommend the same. As quirky and innovative as the guy is, I feel like he’ll be tweaking his current designs constantly. OCD comes to mind.

I think a lot of people feel that frustration with American Rifle Company, which is pretty fair. The guy that runs it is a mad scientist type of personality that's always trying to improve his creations. While I appreciate the innovations, I can see how some of his consumers feel as if their products are obsolete after a year as he comes out with a revision.

I kind of felt that way with my Mausingfield M5 when he brought out the M7. I had to reminded myself that my M5 is a badass action, probably my favorite action that I've ever ran, and the new M7 doesn't invalidate how high quality and badass my M5 is.

I think Ted makes awesome actions, the Mausingfield is pretty underrated. I've never ran a Nucleus, but I know people that are really happy with it. It's still a great action, but I can understand how you would feel burned by a product revision so quickly.

 

[kthomas]

Here are Joel Russo's words, on another forum:

Most of you know that I separated myself from another custom action company because I was unwilling to compromise on my demanding standards and fundamental business practices. I played key roles in that business that included designing actions to being solely responsible for making the original designs marketable, to handling customer service.
Since my separation, I have spent a considerable amount of time and resources designing a new line of actions which are now being marketed under the Terminus brand.
My original designs were successful, so it was an easy decision to improve upon them and eliminate a few known design flaws. I was able to accomplish this task by making both dimensional and engineering changes to key areas both on the bolt and the receiver. The first Terminus prototypes were close, but still exhibited some minor issues in the areas that I was targeting improvement. The second prototype proved to be much better and met my standard. Field testing was concluded and the results exceeded my expectations.
The Terminus design offers a refined 3 lug action that is sure to please the most discriminating shooter. I am confident Terminus will define excellence not just in products, but in operation. I personally guarantee my products, and guarantee an exceptional customer experience and service.
I am both grateful and humbled to have such an incredibly talented Team that has been diligently working with me to accomplish our mission. I’m confident with this team comprised of Special Operations Professionals, LE Professionals, competitive shooters, custom rifle builders, and industry leaders, that Terminus will join the ranks with other successful custom actions in the market.

Joel Russo

Just further down the page from that same post he makes a comment that he "owns the print to the vector":

Thanks for your patience while we worked out a few glitches on the website.
I’ll be happy to answer the “elephant in the room question “ what’s the difference?
First off, I own the print to the Vector. And since I own it, I decided to run a small batch of the original design, and change nothing other than the name to Zeus.. While that was in process, I was spending time redesigning the other prints. I changed the Apollo, Apollo Lite/Ti, and the Helios to a .725” bolt. This eliminated the issue with the cocking piece receiver interface most common on the naked 416 ss actions, gave more lug surface area, and eliminated the mag hitting the bolt body due to the large .750” od bolt. I redesigned the cocking piece so the bolt lift is smoother, and the cocking piece does not wear away the receiver while cocking the action. I changed some geometry on the lugs themselves. I also added threaded trigger pins, so no more using a hammer and punch to switch triggers with a $4k optic mounted on the action.
I am in the process adding these changes to the Zeus. I have a small batch of the original design Zeus in stock and availability for immediate delivery while I wait on the updated inventory. The updated Zeus should be available in a few weeks.
The tennon is exactly the same as the Vector.
I believe in complete transparency and I am always available to talk to should you have any additional questions. Feel free to call the number on the website. I pride myself on my customer service.

 

[kthomas]

Anyways, I don't have a dog in the fight between Curtis or Terminus, in fact I had no interest in even spelling out the name "Curtis" again on a forum, until stevesummit called me out for my opinion on the brand. I have no ties to either company, and I don't have a financial interest in this industry. At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter to me what action anyone buys, I just ultimately hope that they are happy with their purchase no matter which direction they decide to go. My opinions are based solely through my direct experience, or through my network of people that I personally know and have shot with.

I'll leave it at that, I have nothing more to say about Curtis. If people want to buy Curtis actions, then that's their call. I'm merely sharing my opinions on the brand, which have caused my friends a lot of money, time and heart ache, and it seems to be a reoccurring theme with that brand if you do some research elsewhere online. Personally the brand is not one that I would recommend, not when there are other actions out there with high pedigrees, and I'll leave it at that.

At the end of the day, my opinion is that of a stranger on the internet, and it's worth what you paid for it. I try to be pretty transparent about why I like or dislike a company or product, and I do it because I want people to have the best experience in this sport. I'm not making money off of anyone on here, I have no ulterior motives. Some people on CGN don't like it when someone else's experience with a product doesn't validate their confirmation bias, and I'm not going to get into arguments with those kind of people anymore. If my opinions hurt your feelings, that's your own problem.

 

[laker415]

Bought a Nucleus last year. Not only has it seen version 1.1, but now version 2. Pretty disappointed. I get that companies should evolve and improve, but for $1600 I didn’t plan on beta testing for literally months before my action is using obsolete parts. I wasn’t all that impressed as it was. I preferred my cheaper Cadex R7 action to be honest. For that, I’ll avoid American Rifle Company and will recommend the same. As quirky and innovative as the guy is, I feel like he’ll be tweaking his current designs constantly. OCD comes to mind.

That's too bad you aren't happy with your nucleus. I have a 1.1 short built, and a 1.1 long action waiting to be built and I really like mine. I see alot of the "upgrades" made were to lower manufacturing delays as they standardized parts between multiple actions. They said they will continue to support earlier generations. I would happily buy another ARC action, but with that said I think I would like to try a push feed, 90* throw like a defiance or impact on my next build.

 

[Johnny Boom]

In Canada, that's a shame that Bighorn (actually now called Zermatt Arms), isn't providing spare parts. They provide excellent CS down in the US, they are very responsive to their customers.

I had a good experience regarding parts with Zermätt.

A few weeks ago I had an issue with a new Zermätt TL3. I emailed ZAI, and they referred me to Gary at Bighorn Sales in BC. We did some troubleshooting and he sent a part to me the same day.

 

[kthomas]

I had a good experience regarding parts with Zermätt.

A few weeks ago I had an issue with a new Zermätt TL3. I emailed ZAI, and they referred me to Gary at Bighorn Sales in BC. We did some troubleshooting and he sent a part to me the same day.

Zermatt has very good CS, so I was surprised to hear someone say otherwise. Glad to hear that they took care of you.

 

[Dling]

That's too bad you aren't happy with your nucleus. I have a 1.1 short built, and a 1.1 long action waiting to be built and I really like mine. I see alot of the "upgrades" made were to lower manufacturing delays as they standardized parts between multiple actions. They said they will continue to support earlier generations. I would happily buy another ARC action, but with that said I think I would like to try a push feed, 90* throw like a defiance or impact on my next build.

A lot of their changes definitely seemed to stem from streamlining production, mixed in with some functionality tweaks along the way. I'm at over 1000 rounds in the last year and a half between a Nuke gen 1.0 and 1.1 and I would hardly call either one "obsolete". Have a friend running a 1.0 LA and an Archimedes as well. I definitely prefer the ARC actions to the one Deadline I've played with.

 

[asa]

Joel Russo is the owner and designer of the terminus actions, he was in a partnership with the Curtis actions.
He also owns Russo Stock's
I have known Joel for along time and can tell you that he is a stand up guy who backs his products and knows a ton about long range and precision shooting. Thanks Ralph

 

[rugbydave]

A lot of their changes definitely seemed to stem from streamlining production, mixed in with some functionality tweaks along the way. I'm at over 1000 rounds in the last year and a half between a Nuke gen 1.0 and 1.1 and I would hardly call either one "obsolete". Have a friend running a 1.0 LA and an Archimedes as well. I definitely prefer the ARC actions to the one Deadline I've played with.

I've also had no issues with my Gen 1.0. It's seen over 10k rounds at this point. I'm pretty sure some of the new parts work with the Gen 1.0 but I could be wrong. I'm not sure what the wear items would be. Firing pin and striker assembly?

 

[BigRobb]

A lot of their changes definitely seemed to stem from streamlining production, mixed in with some functionality tweaks along the way. I'm at over 1000 rounds in the last year and a half between a Nuke gen 1.0 and 1.1 and I would hardly call either one "obsolete". Have a friend running a 1.0 LA and an Archimedes as well. I definitely prefer the ARC actions to the one Deadline I've played with.

I mentioned obsolete parts. The bolt head can be made from version 2.0 bolt heads, but version 1.0 are no longer being produced. The action is good to go, but I feel like if I ever need support, it’ll be limited. For instance, mine is currently wearing a .223 bolt face. I feel like it would be a prudent move to try and track down a $400 .308 bolt head in case I want to change calibers for the next barrel.

 

[Dling]

I've also had no issues with my Gen 1.0. It's seen over 10k rounds at this point. I'm pretty sure some of the new parts work with the Gen 1.0 but I could be wrong. I'm not sure what the wear items would be. Firing pin and striker assembly?

Wouldn't be a bad idea to have a spare parts kit with some bolt guts. I haven't built one up myself yet though.

I mentioned obsolete parts. The bolt head can be made from version 2.0 bolt heads, but version 1.0 are no longer being produced. The action is good to go, but I feel like if I ever need support, it’ll be limited. For instance, mine is currently wearing a .223 bolt face. I feel like it would be a prudent move to try and track down a $400 .308 bolt head in case I want to change calibers for the next barrel.

Version 1.0 and 1.1 bolt heads are the same and still being produced by ARC. Ted has said that they will continue support seeing as there's a bunch out in the wild, at least for the near future anyway. Between the 1.0/1.1 and 2.0 bolt heads, they'll fit one way but not the other. Memory is failing me on which right now. I already have a 223, 308 and mag bolt face to give myself some flexibility.

 

[BigRobb]

Version 1.0 and 1.1 bolt heads are the same and still being produced by ARC. Ted has said that they will continue support seeing as there's a bunch out in the wild, at least for the near future anyway. Between the 1.0/1.1 and 2.0 bolt heads, they'll fit one way but not the other. Memory is failing me on which right now. I already have a 223, 308 and mag bolt face to give myself some flexibility.

The 1.1 uses a modified version 1 bolt. 1.1 was a transition to version 2 in order to use up the inventory of parts they had on hand. Arc has said that they will only be producing v2 bolts from now on, but that they can modify them to work in v1 receivers.
At this rate though, I’d expect to see a v2.1 and then a v3 in 2021...
I should add, that I do like the action. It was just a little disappointing to only see it last a year before it was changed to save money. Nobody wants to buy a car that changes body style every year. Parts become a pain in the rear. It’s common sense.

 

[Dling]

The 1.1 uses a modified version 1 bolt. 1.1 was a transition to version 2 in order to use up the inventory of parts they had on hand. Arc has said that they will only be producing v2 bolts from now on, but that they can modify them to work in v1 receivers.
At this rate though, I’d expect to see a v2.1 and then a v3 in 2021...

My 1.0 and 1.1 both use the same boltheads. I bought my 1.1 around the same time that ARC was inbetween the two. I have my gen 1.0 bolt in my 1.1 and 1.1 in my gen 1.0 right now.

To quote Ted from a other forum:

The only difference between bolt heads are the locking lug chamfers that contact the forward closing cams of the receivers. The bolt head used in the Gen1 and Gen1.1 Nucleus will work in the Gen2 Nucleus and in the Archimedes but with a slight bump on close.

In most case due to part variation within dimensional tolerance, the bolt head used in the Gen2.0 Nucleus and in the Archimedes will make it very difficult to close the bolt if used in either the Gen1 or Gen1.1 Nucleus.

I totally get the frustration though. Does suck not being able to add a third with 100% compatibility.

 

[Element82]

Has anyone mentioned Ultimatum Precision yet?

 

[Savage]

Have you looked Ultimatum precision actions made in Canada