Premature Norky Barrel Wear ?
- Thread starter redivivus
- Start date
Thank you for the specifics and the perspective wrt to competition shooters. It helps to establish parameters to start cross comparing relative accuracy degradation as the barrel wears.
Going through the MIL standard for the M16A2 (MIL-R-63997B) and for the M4A1 (MIL-C-71186), I was able to find, interestingly, an acceptance criteria for targeting and accuracy of the barrels - Figure 1, Section 3.4.6, Amendment 4. If I am reading the charts correctly, it states that the extreme spread for a 10 shot group must not exceed a 2"x2" square at 100 yards. Note that this is shot using iron sights and there is no mention of using a mechanical rest.
So this means that, in absolute terms, my Norky, when new, would have probably flunked this acceptance test and the LMT would have had a slighty higher chance of passing it. After ~12k rounds, the Norky flamboyantly fails
Note that this acceptance criteria is for new manufacture rifles, I was unable to find any supplemental information for acceptable accuracy of in-service rifles. I'll keep looking, but would appreciate any leads to documentation
The rifle itself has held up remarkably well. In fact, it has far exceeded my expectations. I have not replaced any part (although I inspect them regularly) and neither has anything broken. The finish has held up very well with no uneven wear marks or chipping. The only cosmetic flaw has been that the stock buttstock has gotten a little wobbly with use and I'll be replacing it one of the Magpul ones soon. Mechanically, it is in good operating order and the trigger is smooth.
Initially I had a few FTF and FTEs but once it broke-in after a few hundred rounds it's been running like a champ. Now it only jams up very very infrequently, and usually only when I run MFS ammo. They just don't seem to like each other
My biggest complaint has nothing to do with the rifle, but the supplied magazines. They are junk and contribute to most of the failures. I use Magpul PMags exclusively, but even their spines crack under heavy use so every couple of months, I have to get new mags
In short: it is a tremendous buy for the price and other than a few cosmetic finish issues, is at par with most North American manufacturer's offerings. I have no regrets buying one and will continue to use this rifle (abeit with a new mid length barrel) alongside my (much) more expensive firearms.
In response to a few of the queries above,
na1lb0hm: Ya, don't forget the obligatory "lady owned and operated" part
cptseawolf: The Norinco uppers do look inciting and are priced right. I have, unfortunately, always had an affinity for mid-length carnies so will instead be pursuing a 16" mid-length barrel. Might as well take the opportunity presented!
Kayser Sose: Thank you for the recommendation Re: Butch's Bore Shine. I will look into this for future applications.
Greenhorse six: Yes, the stock Norky barrels are chrome plated.
Ganderite: Interesting you should bring this up as it was the first thing that I looked into. The groups have opened up considerably for all types of ammo. Mine does not shoot Winchester or MFS well. It seems to like the 55gr American Eagle stuff a lot. Looking at your groups, maybe I should start hand-loading. lol. DO you use irons or a scope ?
Just as a clarification: this thread is not about acquiring a barrel - I have no issues with buying one - but rather is to establish parameters and potential reasons for excessive barrel wear due to regular use. Anyone else have high round counts that they wish to share or thoughts on the matter ?
na1lb0hm: Ya, don't forget the obligatory "lady owned and operated" part
cptseawolf: The Norinco uppers do look inciting and are priced right. I have, unfortunately, always had an affinity for mid-length carnies so will instead be pursuing a 16" mid-length barrel. Might as well take the opportunity presented!
Kayser Sose: Thank you for the recommendation Re: Butch's Bore Shine. I will look into this for future applications.
Greenhorse six: Yes, the stock Norky barrels are chrome plated.
Ganderite: Interesting you should bring this up as it was the first thing that I looked into. The groups have opened up considerably for all types of ammo. Mine does not shoot Winchester or MFS well. It seems to like the 55gr American Eagle stuff a lot. Looking at your groups, maybe I should start hand-loading. lol. DO you use irons or a scope ?
Just as a clarification: this thread is not about acquiring a barrel - I have no issues with buying one - but rather is to establish parameters and potential reasons for excessive barrel wear due to regular use. Anyone else have high round counts that they wish to share or thoughts on the matter ?
DaveMachine
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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- Location
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That's made me laugh! I wonder if that voids the warranty? LOL
Does agreeing with you earn me an infraction too?
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Short answer is there is none. Ultimately only you can judge if that barrel is now a tomato stake.
Some match shooters may change out barrels after a few thousand rounds if their main focus is holding 'X' accuracy and they find the barrel has degraded to a point where that is no longer consistent.
Some barrels even in the same lot/manufacturer will last longer than others.
Some chrome linings may begin to flake or otherwise fail earlier than others, and some still prematurely.
Generally shooting (mostly) and cleaning(little IMHO) schedules affect wear, the simle fact is not all barrels are created equal.
While I suppose you could measure it against typical or median round counts being put through M4s, you need to consider army guns are subjected to full auto and blank fire as well as sometimes insane cleaning regimes - so that might give you a number, but it should not surprise you if it is less....or more.
Personally it just puts a smile on my face to hear someone has pumped over 10grand through one in the space of a few years they have been available and is just now starting to degrade. That is good news for Norinco owners and a testament to their quality. You should be posting detailed photos of wear points so everyone can get a good look at what that type of round count looks like.
As a clarification on my suggestion to sell it, obviously that would include full disclosure....
Bolivar
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
At that rate for wear and the rate I shoot, I have 10-15 years before I will wear out my Norc barrel. I can live with that. If I get less time because my shooting rate increases, I am good with that too.
coldfire: Yes, they were cracking on the rivet side. I had called Magpul up the first time one cracked but they lost interest as soon as I mentioned "Canada". So, I just kept the springs and followers and chucked the rest. As per your suggestion, I'll mail the next one that cracks back to them anyway. Especially considering we pay a $6 premuim for a rivet
beltfed: I was only teasing! I am a bad seller as a wise man once told me 'never to sell and straight shooting gun'. So, once bought they become part of the family
Good points Re: useage patterns and cleaning regimens affecting barrel life. Compared to the army rifles, our civilan ones lead a sheltered existance!
I'm currently travelling on business, but will post pictures when I get back home. I think most people will be surprised by the condition.
Oh, and this isn't the only Norinco I've pumped over 10k rounds in - one more is over that mark and it's doing just fine
beltfed: I was only teasing! I am a bad seller as a wise man once told me 'never to sell and straight shooting gun'. So, once bought they become part of the family
Good points Re: useage patterns and cleaning regimens affecting barrel life. Compared to the army rifles, our civilan ones lead a sheltered existance!
I'm currently travelling on business, but will post pictures when I get back home. I think most people will be surprised by the condition.
Oh, and this isn't the only Norinco I've pumped over 10k rounds in - one more is over that mark and it's doing just fine
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coldfire: Yes, they were cracking on the rivet side. I had called Magpul up the first time one cracked but they lost interest as soon as I mentioned "Canada". So, I just kept the springs and followers and chucked the rest. As per your suggestion, I'll mail the next one that cracks back to them anyway. Especially considering we pay a $6 premuim for a rivet
beltfed: I was only teasing! I am a bad seller as a wise man once told me 'never to sell and straight shooting gun'. So, once bought they become part of the family
Good points Re: useage patterns and cleaning regimens affecting barrel life. Compared to the army rifles, our civilan ones lead a sheltered existance!
I'm currently travelling on business, but will post pictures when I get back home. I think most people will be surprised by the condition.
Oh, and this isn't the only Norinco I've pumped over 10k rounds in - one more is over that mark and it's doing just fine
I think that it's quite remarkable that we can buy a rifle for $700 and put 10K+ through it, for folks who are more recreationally oriented, this should be good news. For those who aren't fans of Chinese rifles, it won't change anything. Incidently, I interpreted the same chart as showing a maximum dispersion (extreme spread) of 5 inches (the 'A' measurement) for 10 rounds as the overall maximum for group size.
enefgee: On re-looking at the chart, I would say that you are correct - maximum permitted dispersion for a 10 shot group at 100m is indeed 5". I wonder what the significance of F,G and H is ?
True, it does offer good value and is functionally accurate to boot.
Chrome moly barrels erode gradually, becoming smooth forward of the throat area. At some point the accuracy starts to drop off. In a 308 the chrome moly barrel will be good for 2000 rounds and then drop off and be poor by 2500.
A stainless wears quite differently. To the eye it looks like there is no erosion at all. Under magnification you can see a pattern of cracks that look like dried mud. The cracks get deeper with time and all of a sudden the barrel goes from very good to crap as a piece of steel flakes off between two big cracks. In a 308 I expect around 5000 rounds out of a stainless, or more.
In my experience, 223 barrels last at least twice as long as 308 barrels.
A chromed barrel is more like a stainless. It shoots the same until disaster hits, when a piece of chrome flakes off. I do not expect a chromed barrel to shoot as accurately as a non-chromed barrel.
The barrel life quoted is an average. There is a significant variation in identical barrels shot and cleaned the same way by the same owner. And even a larger variation when you get different owers shooting different ammo and cleaning with different regimes.
I would have thought the Norc barrel would have lasted longer than 10,000 rounds, but it is a snap to change out and new ones are cheap.
A stainless wears quite differently. To the eye it looks like there is no erosion at all. Under magnification you can see a pattern of cracks that look like dried mud. The cracks get deeper with time and all of a sudden the barrel goes from very good to crap as a piece of steel flakes off between two big cracks. In a 308 I expect around 5000 rounds out of a stainless, or more.
In my experience, 223 barrels last at least twice as long as 308 barrels.
A chromed barrel is more like a stainless. It shoots the same until disaster hits, when a piece of chrome flakes off. I do not expect a chromed barrel to shoot as accurately as a non-chromed barrel.
The barrel life quoted is an average. There is a significant variation in identical barrels shot and cleaned the same way by the same owner. And even a larger variation when you get different owers shooting different ammo and cleaning with different regimes.
I would have thought the Norc barrel would have lasted longer than 10,000 rounds, but it is a snap to change out and new ones are cheap.
I am not too surprised as the Chinese has the Austrian machine to CHF barrels, so do the Russians.
Chinese weapons seem to be generally poor in finishing and skimpy on the details for the western standard, but they seem to use good materials in the main components that matter. Their small arms do work.
Yes ago, a magazine did a test on a Colt commerical sporter and it is shot out in 8000 rounds IIRC.
The OP should do a detail cleaning of the barrel.
Ganderite: Thx for the information. Actually the barrel did last more than 10k rounds. I was hoping for it to last around the 15k mark seeing as I have a Norky 1911 that has this one beat in terms of mileage and is still going strong. Either way, as you mentioned, barrels are a relatively cheap fix.
greentips: Thx. I have been vigorous with my cleaning once I started suspecting the accuracy, but will give it another once over the next time I go to the range. If it doesn't improve, it'll get replaced. I just wanted to see how far I could take it as a matter of curiosity
5440fight: I'm afraid you may have incorrectly factored the cost of ammunition. I don't have my log book handy, but I suspect I spent ~3 to 4k on 5.56mm ammunition. Note that I typically buy a couple of thousand rounds at a time, so can reap the benefits of buying in bulk.
Any tips on which replacement barrel to get ? I'm looking to acquire a 16" mid-length one.
greentips: Thx. I have been vigorous with my cleaning once I started suspecting the accuracy, but will give it another once over the next time I go to the range. If it doesn't improve, it'll get replaced. I just wanted to see how far I could take it as a matter of curiosity
5440fight: I'm afraid you may have incorrectly factored the cost of ammunition. I don't have my log book handy, but I suspect I spent ~3 to 4k on 5.56mm ammunition. Note that I typically buy a couple of thousand rounds at a time, so can reap the benefits of buying in bulk.
Any tips on which replacement barrel to get ? I'm looking to acquire a 16" mid-length one.
.... those dots are me realising I'm paying way too much for .308/7.62x51...
Since I may be interested in acquiring some sort of M14 variant, which I would like to have "accurized", I guess this begs the question:
If you wanted to buy a high quality variant, apparently it's not a Norky. So what is?
How does one go about acquiring a high quality variant? In my case of an M14 but I gather the quality issues would be similar.
If you wanted to buy a high quality variant, apparently it's not a Norky. So what is?
How does one go about acquiring a high quality variant? In my case of an M14 but I gather the quality issues would be similar.
