Premium scales users comments, milligram vs microgram?

AND FX120i is what most of us have gravitated to for cost vs performance.

Even us OCD loaders will see little to no difference on target at the 1 or 2 kernel level... YES, I have tested. So, the error in the scale is under what we can actually see on target.

There are a very few going to true ultra sensitive scales which can read under 1 kernel error but I doubt they will see any benefits on target.

It certainly hasn't shown up in their scores.....

Jerry

PS... every single itty bitty OCD step is taken with the best of rifle set ups and optics to see the benefits of this level of charge weight accuracy. The average "sub MOA" shooter would be best spending more time enjoying shooting then worrying about a whole list of things competitive F class and LR BR shooters do.

Unless they want to journey down a very deep rabbit hole :)
 
Um yeah the entris 64-1s at 1800$CAD+tax is quite expensive.

Much more affordable in the USA.... (like everything else) at around 1000$.

Probably not worth the 1000$ premium over the Fx120I I guess.

And the real question is, is it worth it over the gempro 250.
 
Mystic Precision said:
AND FX120i is what most of us have gravitated to for cost vs performance.

Even us OCD loaders will see little to no difference on target at the 1 or 2 kernel level... YES, I have tested. So, the error in the scale is under what we can actually see on target.

There are a very few going to true ultra sensitive scales which can read under 1 kernel error but I doubt they will see any benefits on target. IF the shooter has confidence in their process using the .0001g scales then they can focus on other aspects of their reloading KNOWING they can eliminate their powder measuring as a point of issue

It certainly hasn't shown up in their scores..... DISAGREE

Jerry

PS... every single itty bitty OCD step is taken with the best of rifle set ups and optics to see the benefits of this level of charge weight accuracy. The average "sub MOA" shooter would be best spending more time enjoying shooting then worrying about a whole list of things competitive F class and LR BR shooters do. FULLY AGREE

Unless they want to journey down a very deep rabbit hole :)
Click to expand...

We seem to have difference of opinion on this subject
 
There may be justification to be more precise for the F-class crowd...I do not shoot this discipline.
However, I do shoot 1000 yard BR, and in discussing the loads with various winners, I see no
movement toward anything finer than .1 grains. Most are +- .1 [Groups at 1000 are commonly <½ moa.]

I guess what I am saying is the average guy has absolutely no need to spend serious coin on weighing
instruments that are more precise than will even be needed.

Again, whatever floats your boat. Not my coin being spent. I have had my say, and stand by it. Dave.
 
Kryogen said:
Um yeah the entris 64-1s at 1800$CAD+tax is quite expensive.

Much more affordable in the USA.... (like everything else) at around 1000$.

Probably not worth the 1000$ premium over the Fx120I I guess.

And the real question is, is it worth it over the gempro 250.
Click to expand...

Fx120I is far better than the Gempro- no comparison. Gempro constantly drifts , slow to read and a real pain to use. Couldn't be happier with the Fx120, some of the best money I have spent on reloading gear. Can't comment on the high end scales as the budget wont allow it. Extra money is better spent on bullets and barrels
 
Mr. H. gifts me serpreeme cah-kah by fine tuning using tweezers.
But butt it's a purrfect charge.
He does have some pretty yew-neat expressions...............:cool:
 
There is a higher requirement for accuracy in 1000 BR then F Class you are attempting to shoot the smallest group where we are attempting to stay within the 1/2 min V ring.
For your discipline, it would come down to case size if you are shooting a Dasher you would benefit from a higher end scale as the charge weights are in the 30gn range if you are in the heavy gun class shooting 30 cal (magums) with charge weights north of 70gn then you would see little if any benefit in these $1,000 dollar scales.

In a different train of thought i use my scale everytime to prepare for matchs, practices and plinking to sort bullets, cases, weigh charges as opposed to using my rifle, scope, bipod or front rest.

All the Best
Trevor
 
Hi buddy,
My take on the subject is that is not worth the cash over what you use now. You are better investing to improve consistancy in ther other BIG area of reloading to acheive your goals.
If you want to shrink those group LR, you must improve your annealing setup. At the level of perfection you seem to pursue, your actual method "f.c.s" all the progress your are trying to do.
Uniform start pressure is everything.
(ok, ok, the jump to the land is major too :) ) .

But uniform neck thickness and annealing stress release are the best thing to see improvement on paper.

Mush
 
one of my issues was mixed brass.

Now I use a batch of 100 lapua cases, should be better.
Right now they are new so annealing is not the issue.
 
Eagleye said:
There may be justification to be more precise for the F-class crowd...I do not shoot this discipline.
However, I do shoot 1000 yard BR, and in discussing the loads with various winners, I see no
movement toward anything finer than .1 grains. Most are +- .1 [Groups at 1000 are commonly <½ moa.]

I guess what I am saying is the average guy has absolutely no need to spend serious coin on weighing
instruments that are more precise than will even be needed.

Again, whatever floats your boat. Not my coin being spent. I have had my say, and stand by it. Dave.
Click to expand...


As I said earlier, the average "sub MOA" shooter has neither the tools, skills and/or desire to bother with this level of fussing BUT we are in the Precision rifle section where there are a large population of readers that DO care about this stuff.

As Trevor60 said, it boils down to application. I bet all those Dasher shooters care about the closest tenth... if they don't, they are missing out.

If you are shooting a 300 Kaboomer, a tenth or two will have little to no affect BUT if you don't have the gear, how do you test to find out if it matters? I have shoot 300RUM sized cases and have seen some improvements even at the 0.1gr level. When you can weigh to this level, it is quite revealing its affect on target.

We have all started with more mundane tools and steps. As the level of competition and performance increased so has our gear. Does some of what we do have a larger effect on our self confidence then target? Maybe but as we refine what puts bullets on paper in small clusters, the gear gets "better".

For an F class shooter trying to podium at a larger match, the 1/2 min level of accuracy is not the BEST group... it is the WORST group.

Wind and ambient conditions already add a huge negative. We don't need to increase the error with poorly shooting ammo or rifles.

We also experience way hotter barrels then any other LR shooting sport. I really don't think any other precision sport requires 17 to 30rds to be fired in a short period of time and have the last shot be as precise as the first.

This is where many shooters may not see the benefit.... stress a precision rifle the way we do and many unimportant things become critical.

Just had fun helping a customer with his Ruger PR shoot LR. It actually did quite well until shot 6 and then groups got a whole lot bigger as the barrel overheated - the rifle was cooled regularly. One factory ammo was more like shotgun ammo at 880yds (it has shot great at 550yds)... The 2nd brand was alot better at 880yds but had almost 3 mins of vertical at 1240yds

This rifle and ammo shot really tight at shorter distances...

I was calling the winds so that error was greatly reduced. I also shot the rifle just in case it was a shooter error... NOPE.

He is going to start reloading and will want to explore all the steps to get shooting much tighter at distance. May not get anywhere near 1/2 min BUT I am sure we can make it work a whole lot more predictably and consistently. For him, tuning to the best 0.1gr is going to show benefits on target

Jerry
 
Kryogen said:
one of my issues was mixed brass.

Now I use a batch of 100 lapua cases, should be better.
Right now they are new so annealing is not the issue.
Click to expand...

I do not shoot F class. I'm not even a great shot in the realms I do enjoy shooting...a single "kernel" of powder (regardless of volumetric evaluations) will not make anywhere near as significant a difference as the volume of the actual brass I was using. Brass from same manufacturer may vary by a "kernel" regarding the true aspiration of consistency.

I (and I have no doubt many) try for the most consistent of ammo made at home as possible.
 
Curious....what's the best deal in Canada for a FX-120I?

EDIT: found this one ---> http://cambridgeenviro.com/searchResults.php?userQuery=FX-120i
 
I've recently done a lot of changes to my reloading(and a few things on the rifle/set up), and the difference really showed last match. My whole reloading/brass management procedure is now getting changed.
I've been using the FX120i for 3yrs, putting the exact amount of powder in is only 1 out of 20 or so steps toward great ammo.
 
SND said:
I've recently done a lot of changes to my reloading(and a few things on the rifle/set up), and the difference really showed last match. My whole reloading/brass management procedure is now getting changed.
I've been using the FX120i for 3yrs, putting the exact amount of powder in is only 1 out of 20 or so steps toward great ammo.
Click to expand...

Tell us more
 
Was doing more testing at 250yds in some gusty winds. The loads are on the high side of the node but it makes it much easier to illustrate why precise charge weight is so important.

b5ac9ab7-159b-4cd7-8a8d-0f0e618803bf_zpshr64k5g5.jpg


I didn't account for the wind and just let the bullets drift... I was looking at the vertical in the groups.

For Load A, except for the double group which is certainly affected by the winds, the vertical is very low at under 1/2". The width of the group is 2 3/4" outside to outside.

Load B is 0.1gr higher then load A. Windage is 2 1/2" but vertical is over 1 1/4"

Load C is 0.1gr higher then load B or 0.2gr higher then load A. Windage is 3" wide but vertical is now a whopping 3 5/8" tall. This load would be an absolute disaster at LR.

If all you looked at was windage, all three loads were well within the error of wind drift..... 1/4" plus or minus of the median is not alot of change at 250yds.

BUT when vertical is added to the mix, there is simply no doubt there are some very dramatic affects with very small changes in charge weight.

For LR shooting, flat groups are ideal. "Round" groups are likely to string vertically at LR.

YMMV.

Jerry
 
Jerry, have you noticed that same change in vertical going .2gr lower? to me that seems like a picky rifle or bullet...

Can't say I personally ever had the chance to put much work into finding that .1gr load... always figured there's too many variables, temp, atmospheric, varying light/mirage condition/tail winds, case volume variation(I've tested a bit now and definitely brass sorting...) that would easily over throw that .1gr. Maybe someday I'll find the time to play with that a bit more out of curiosity. Also important to have everything properly neck turned, sorted and aligned before bothering with fine tuning loads like that.
Apparently primers will also play a fair bit with random elevation and I'll soon be trying softer federals vs cci's.
 
Ok just to add some useful info to the thread
Brian Litz in his lastest book modern advancements in lr shooting tested the ES of the chargemaster vs satorius lab scale.

ES was able to go down from around 8 to 6 with single kernel loading vs +-.1

That's just a 2-3 ES difference, so unless you are winning 1000 yards shooting, and are already getting 8 ES ammo with +-.1, it's probably not going to matter much. Look elsewhere.... switching primers got loads from 20 es to 10 es.

Should have kept my chargemaster, eh ;)
 
I have contemplated back and forth about buying a digital lab scale but I have been very happy with the charges measured on my beam scale. It reacts to 1-2 kernels of powder.



 
SND said:
Jerry, have you noticed that same change in vertical going .2gr lower? to me that seems like a picky rifle or bullet...

Can't say I personally ever had the chance to put much work into finding that .1gr load... always figured there's too many variables, temp, atmospheric, varying light/mirage condition/tail winds, case volume variation(I've tested a bit now and definitely brass sorting...) that would easily over throw that .1gr. Maybe someday I'll find the time to play with that a bit more out of curiosity. Also important to have everything properly neck turned, sorted and aligned before bothering with fine tuning loads like that.
Apparently primers will also play a fair bit with random elevation and I'll soon be trying softer federals vs cci's.
Click to expand...

SND, sorry for a super slow response but never saw this years back or I would have responded.

Like any load, when you vary the powder charge, the vertical and/or group will be affected. By now, you have likely done alot more shooting, testing and tuning. I am sure you have seen more of the effects powder charge can have WITH THE OTHER STEPS IN YOUR RELOADING, to produce the best scoring ammo.

Jerry
 
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