Pressure Signs under max load

Not only primers or cases can make a difference in pressure signs. Changing " same weight" bullets from one manufacturer to another's can change chamber pressure enough to go from insignificant to very noticeable.

Different manufacturers use different lead composition & different jacket thickness's that start the barrel trip with different ease or restriction. I've used " same rifle, same brass, same primers, same powder charge" but transposed one manufacturer to another for the "same weight bullet" and have went from rounded faced primers to very much flattened with firing pin cratering by the time I was back up to original load .

Always start light when starting new and back off a bit when changing ANYTHING in a "performance load".
 
My impression at looking at the original post was, "What excess pressure is he talking about?" I see primers that show very normal, to even light normal pressure. Any "tiny" bit of extra pressure he may have felt in opening the bolt is also a nothing. And no impressions, whatsoever, of the bolt face on the cartridge is a nearly sure sign of a lower pressure load.
And no sign, whatsoever, like a little shiny spot on the case, where the bolt turned a bit before the case broke loose from the chamber. This always happens on an over load, the heavier and longer the shiny streak, the more pressure that was generated.
Several writers have mentioned loose primers, but I have carefully read the posts and I don't see where the OP states the primers loosened.
He doesn't state what powder he used, but the figures he uses fits Varget, so I presume it was Varget.
If that had been me shooting that test, I would have gone up a half grain at a time until I found where the load did start to show some sign of excess pressure. I would then have dropped back, probably a half grain, and that would have been my load. Period.
The brass the OP used is Match grade, thus it is designed for heavy loading, because it is known that experienced match shooters load their cartridges to the maximum their rifle will stand.
Hodgdon's show the load the OP apparently talks about as max, 45 grains of Varget with 180 grain bullet, as having a velocity of 2660. Thus, I think it is agreed, that if you used a chronograph you could continue to add powder, until you reached the range of 2650 for the velocity.
Maybe 45 grains, or even less, will reach the area of 2650, but I have never tried any rifle in any calibre using any powder, where the stated amount of maximum load reached the velocity stated in the modern US loading books.
While the OP has been roundly trashed for starting at 44 grains when the maximum load is shown as 45 grains, if it had been me, I would have looked the whole situation over and started at 44 grains with my new, strongly built bolt action rifle, or I may even have started at the shown max of 45 grains!
Because lets put it this way, the "maximum" load shown in the loading books is supposed to be the velocity the bullet was designed to travel in that calibre.
Factory loads are supposed to be the same.
So are you guys afraid to fire factory loads in a new rifle?
Please feel free to trash me also, if you so desire.
 
cosmic said:
Well - You are an experienced reloader that knows all the tricks. The OP obviously is not...
Click to expand...

It's not a trick of any sort. It's familiarity with your rifle. If you have worked up loads previously that digest book max loads without signs of pressure, then likely your rifle is not one of those that can't handle book max. Not saying one should always jump to a max load, but you likely don't have to start at the minimum.

Trash away, I can take it also!;)
 
joe-nwt said:
It's not a trick of any sort. It's familiarity with your rifle. If you have worked up loads previously that digest book max loads without signs of pressure, then likely your rifle is not one of those that can't handle book max. Not saying one should always jump to a max load, but you likely don't have to start at the minimum.
QUOTE]

You got it, that's exactly what I do!
I also use my own notes for most of my reloading, to see what I have loaded in the past that has worked fine.
Click to expand...
 
H4831 said:
While the OP has been roundly trashed for starting at 44 grains when the maximum load is shown as 45 grains, if it had been me, I would have looked the whole situation over and started at 44 grains with my new, strongly built bolt action rifle, or I may even have started at the shown max of 45 grains!
Because lets put it this way, the "maximum" load shown in the loading books is supposed to be the velocity the bullet was designed to travel in that calibre.
Factory loads are supposed to be the same.
So are you guys afraid to fire factory loads in a new rifle?
Please feel free to trash me also, if you so desire.
Click to expand...

This is very bad advice, I hope the OP knows better after all that has been said.
BB
 
H4831 said:
While the OP has been roundly trashed for starting at 44 grains when the maximum load is shown as 45 grains, if it had been me, I would have looked the whole situation over and started at 44 grains with my new, strongly built bolt action rifle, or I may even have started at the shown max of 45 grains!
Because lets put it this way, the "maximum" load shown in the loading books is supposed to be the velocity the bullet was designed to travel in that calibre.
Factory loads are supposed to be the same.
So are you guys afraid to fire factory loads in a new rifle?
Please feel free to trash me also, if you so desire.
Click to expand...
You would start at max loads in an unknown rifle with unknown chamber tolerances and unknown head space tolerance with brass you have no experience with?
You've never hit listed velocity with a less than max load?
You've never gotten lower than advertised velocity with factory ammo?
We're not talking about an experienced reloader with a familiar rifle.

In an unknown rifle in a calibre I have little to no experience with and brass I've never reloaded with before I wouldn't start at max or near max.
If you have experience with the rifle or measured the chamber and have experience with rifles with similar dimensions, and have used that brand/type of brass before, that is a totally different story.
I know modern rifles are proofed at the factory with overpressure ammo so the chances of a catastrophic failure are practically non-existent but that doesn't mean it's a good idea. You can still get headaches (stuck cases, wrecked brass, gas cutting on the bolt face, etc.) that can be avoided by loading up instead of down.

Even if what OP did was technically safe it's still bad form without the experience required. You saying you have the experience required (and I'm not doubting that) doesn't change the fact that it's ill advised for OP who doesn't have said experience.
 
After reading BeagleBoy's posts again, I think he made an intelligent decision. People have said he has little experience with reloading but I didn't see where he said that. A friend and I took his new M70 Win in 270 to the range the other day. I made loads from 59 grains to 61 grains in .3 grain increments. All were H4831. Fired some factory stuff first, then the reloads. No signs of pressure yet. Was I wrong to do this?








loads
 
The only "Pressure Signs" I recognize are what the primer pockets and my chrony tell me. Various load manuals can assist me in establishing a range for the powder chosen, and I then work up in 0.5 gr increments to start, and then once a max has been established based on the "signs", retreat 0.2 grs at a time to find a most accurate load. I generally load an OAL that's about 0.020" from the rifling, as adding that variable to finding a most accurate load burns up too much time, money and barrels according to my personal "loading economy" to be worthwhile for me.

Primer pockets that cannot hold a primer sufficiently well after four firings indicate a load that needs to be reduced for that load combination (brass, bullet and powder), regardless of what the load manuals state. Only then can the chrony help me, as it will now tell me if a load with a different powder is at a higher or lower pressure than my pre-established max load.

Or, you can do what generates the least amount of CGN angst - look at 10 load manuals, find the one with the lowest starting load, start a bit lower than that, work up in 0.1 gr increments, and stop the instant you see what you think might be a "pressure sign".
 
bigbull said:
This is very bad advice, I hope the OP knows better after all that has been said.
BB
Click to expand...

Show me where I advised the OP, or any one else, to do anything.
My post was entirely what I have done/would do, without any advice offered to anyone.
 
H4831 said:
Show me where I advised the OP, or any one else, to do anything.
My post was entirely what I have done/would do, without any advice offered to anyone.
Click to expand...

I will preface this with - I don't want to sound like an ass, and i'm not being disrespectful

But...I think it's pretty commonly perceived that someone posting in a thread, where someone is asking for advice, one's own experience and saying that what the OP did was not incorrect or dangerous or wrong, and that one would personally do the very same thing, or even go further, could easily be taken as offering advice.

I know I posted a thread asking for advice on reloading - if someone posted in my thread and said simply that "they did exactly x and had y results" then I would quite likely look at that as at least some advice. I may not take it and use it exactly, I may tone it down and work up, especially since it may not be the same type of firearm/ammo that the opinion/experience was had as is being asked about. But the fact remains, if you post in a thread asking for advice, and state what works for you, most people will take that as advice (especially when you are an experienced reloader who's been doing it for a long time - you are the guys we newbies look to for help and advice).

Totally not knocking your experience/advice - I'm far too new to do that, and to know if it's right or wrong. I personally have been working my way up from minimum because the gun I'm reloading for is an antique and I don't have much info for it. But I just wanted to post this, in case you maybe didn't realize, but someone with lots of experience has an opinion/experience to offer that many will take as advice, based purely on the amount of knowledge and experience someone like yourself has.
 
While I totally agree one don't (always) have to start at a the minimum given (and tested, from a reliable source) load, starting high with an over resized case is a free ticket to an eventual bad event.
And seen the nature of the question, that is my understanding that the OP is not that used to reloading.
 
Baribal said:
While I totally agree one don't (always) have to start at a the minimum given (and tested, from a reliable source) load, starting high with an over resized case is a free ticket to an eventual bad event.
And seen the nature of the question, that is my understanding that the OP is not that used to reloading.
Click to expand...

I have certainly appreciated all the good information I have received from you in the past, and I don't mean to contradict any thing you have posted here. I do however, wish to clarify the position I took.
Modern guns, and modern goes back a lot of years, have a tremendous safety margin for the pressure they generate. When Mauser developed the model 1898, they designed it to be safe with a pressure of 100,000 pounds.
The loads in most modern loading books are lighter, sometimes a considerable amount lighter, than were the older reloading charts, and I stressed "modern" loading books, when I talked about starting at full load.
In a play of words, modern loading books always use the term "Maximun," when they actually mean the standard load for that particular cartridge. For years loading charts used the term "Charge," for the amount of powder and there was no starting loads shown. Thus, the term maximum, in modern loading books, means the standard load, which is also supposed to be the same as the standard load in a factory load.
The actual velocity of most newer factory loads is less than shown. It wasn't always so. I have recently chronographed old CIL Dominion factory loads in each of 30-30 and 35 Remington and each was what the factory said they were, about 2200 fps for the 30-30 and about 2100 for the 35 Remington. This is 150 to 200 fps faster than the actual speed of reloads shown as maximum in Hodgdon's on line! In the case of the 30-30 it took at least 3 grains of powder more than they showed for maximum, to get the 170 grain 30-30 bullet up to what the factory states they should be traveling.
I could go on and on, but you get the idea.
 
Well, Bruce, I think we are missing way too much information to say the OP's loads are safe or not, - we dont know what powder - we all ASSUME it's Varget, but - we don't know OAL, we don't know his rifle's leade lengthr, we don't know how he resized his brass and finally, we don't know what rifle it is and even worse, we don't know it's condition. I speak for myself, but I never trust what I can't touch by my own.
 
Last edited:
Baribal said:
Well, Bruce, I think we are missing way too much information to say the OP's loads are safe or not, - we dont know what powder - we all ASSUME it's Varget, but - we don't know OAL, we don't know his rifle's leade lengt, we don't know how he resized his brass and finally, we don't know what rifle it is and even worse, we don't know it's condition. I speak for myself, but I never trust what I can't touch by my own.
Click to expand...

People are not correctly reading my post. Here is a copy of part of it.-------------"While the OP has been roundly trashed for starting at 44 grains when the maximum load is shown as 45 grains, if it had been me, I would have looked the whole situation over and started at 44 grains with my new, strongly built bolt action rifle, or I may even have started at the shown max of 45 grains!"
In no way did I say the OP did a safe operation. Note I said, "if it had been me, I would have looked the whole situation over----"
Doesn't this clearly mean I would have assessed everything, including the rifle and condition, powder, etc, before I loaded for it?
In any case I am finished with this and I will continue reloading as I have been doing for half a century.
Good-bye.
 
Baribal said:
Well, Bruce, I think we are missing way too much information to say the OP's loads are safe or not, - we dont know what powder - we all ASSUME it's Varget, but - we don't know OAL, we don't know his rifle's leade lengt, we don't know how he resized his brass and finally, we don't know what rifle it is and even worse, we don't know it's condition. I speak for myself, but I never trust what I can't touch by my own.
Click to expand...

Damn, miss a few days and people go crazy.

I'll clear some things up, I have relative reloading knowledge, I reloaded my 223 for a while, now switching to 308. I maybe have 8 months under my belt, which is not a lot, but I feel I am educated enough to figure things out, as well as not do anything stupid. I get latched on to something, and then read everything I can find about it.

As most posts have assumed I am in fact using varget, and I am shooting out of a new Browning X-bolt LE model. Kept in excellent shape (cleaned and lubed after every use).

I should have also made it clear that I have done more loads than straight to the 44gr loads, I have loads ranging from the min to the max, only about 5 rounds at each .5gr increments. The thing is, I live far from the range, and do not have a car (the struggles of a university student) so when I heard there was going to be a nice sunny day, the first in a long time, I felt like paying the 40 dollar taxi out to the range.

So to make it worth my wild, i looked all over the internet researching loads for varget and 178gr, as well as referencing when I could, the gun these loads were being shot out of, to make sure barrel length and what not, was the same length.

Now, I am the kind of guy who I wont look at Ikea instructions, but I will take a glance at the bandsaw instructions before starting anything. So I weighted all the options and figured 44gr was fine. I personally think people are losing their #### over the fact that I am shooting 44gr's

Which to my fault, i should have labeled this thread, "reasons flat primers happen". Then maybe someone would critically think about why this would be happening, rather then just saying I am stupid for loading 44gr.

So far the only person to really answer my question was canucklehead, who had a logical reason about if the brass was over sized it could happen, as well as some other people who informed me that winchester primers could be the issue due to them being very soft.

I will be able to find out soon, I have some rounds loaded with Fed large mag match primers (ohhh ####ttt, now he's using magnum primers) which should clear it up. I would tell you the amount of powder I have loaded in these ones, but I figure if i mention any number between 0 and 128, I'll get the same response, so no point.
 
I think of you mentioned the minimum load you would probably get a fair response :p

Oh crap, and Magnum primers?!? You're effing crazy!

I hope you sense the joking around. On all seriousness though, I'd like to know the best ways to be able to tell high pressure too...But also I'd like to know if these techniques even work for calibers that generally are lower pressure. If a large rifle primer will flatten out with a max load on a 308, then won't it ALWAYS flatten out on a 338LM? What about a smaller/lower pressure large rifle primer'd cartridge....if I loaded that up above max load, I'd still be well below the 308 pressure zone, so could I expect to see flat primers there? I'd assume not....


This matters to me because I'm trying to figure out the max I can push 455 Webley to and it is very low pressure....so this thread is of interest to me.

Back on topic....how about those Magnum primers? This guy is nuts....
 
BeagleBoy,
Then, your post wasn't clear as you stated ;
I went with 44gr after reading tons of people going with 45 to 46.5 and having good results, I know Hodgon would probably set their max a bit low for legal reasons.
Click to expand...

This quote above sounds like you just got an Internet load and just shot it, isn't it??

If you read my posts you'd understand that I don't care about your 44 grains load (and I couldn't care less for your use of magnum primers) - as long as it's worked UP, but what you gave us to understand your "problem" is not much and it's far from being clear, too.
What I told you first is the way you measure your cases for pressure signs is incorrect and inaccurate. I still guess your "problem" is too much resizing, or, if you prefer, too much case headspace. When the case stretches, it crushes your primer back. Simply make it fit tighter and check the results.
All this was addressed in posts #2 and #5.....

BTW, I have over 25 years in the reloading world and I am still learning new things... and I reloaded train loads of ammo....
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom