Preventing dangerous people from obtaining a PAL
- Thread starter xp190
- Start date
While I agree with your motivation, the moment you deny him access to his property if he requests it you are now breaking the law and you have made it personal. Neither of these is a good thing.
My guess is you wrote in here because you are in some torment regarding how to proceed. The way I see it you have 3 choices: 1) do nothing; 2) do it yourself; 3) let the pros evaluate the risk.
#2, if you keep his stuff it will put you on the illegal side of things AND result in you being seen as judge, jury, and executioner.
If #1 was a real option for you personally I don't think you would have risked discussing this on CGN...
Think of this as a lessor-of-evils situation. Is there a way to minimize any potential blow back if you call it in?
Whatever you decide I admire the fact that you are making a considered effort to do the right thing in very trying circumstances. As has been said by far better men than me: to thine own self be true.
My guess is you wrote in here because you are in some torment regarding how to proceed. The way I see it you have 3 choices: 1) do nothing; 2) do it yourself; 3) let the pros evaluate the risk.
#2, if you keep his stuff it will put you on the illegal side of things AND result in you being seen as judge, jury, and executioner.
If #1 was a real option for you personally I don't think you would have risked discussing this on CGN...
Think of this as a lessor-of-evils situation. Is there a way to minimize any potential blow back if you call it in?
Whatever you decide I admire the fact that you are making a considered effort to do the right thing in very trying circumstances. As has been said by far better men than me: to thine own self be true.
Yes! This should be a sticky, as we intend to uphold a GOOD reputation as gun owners (we all know abut the anti trolls around here) this would be a great thing to have on the forum page as a resource in this area. It would look great for us as well as it's just about the only resource we have to report mental health issues AND a lot of gun owners don't even know it exists! I myself have a " mental health problem". But just because I have bipolar disorder doesn't mean I'm a psycho, it just means I need a doctors note! Lol
some people complain that some people think only an "elite class" should have guns.. but those same people think that those with various challenges such as mental health issues (which are often the result of somebody else's wrong doing) should NOT have guns.
so they dont think there shouldnt be an armed class and an unarmed class... they just think that they should be part of the armed class
so they dont think there shouldnt be an armed class and an unarmed class... they just think that they should be part of the armed class
You can really f someone's life up with that phone call.
Perhaps be honest and tell the individual what you intend to do before you make that judgement call.
Or you could do it behind his back and really screw someone over.
I appreciate all the supportive input from you guys.
Yes I am torn with what steps to take, and I am considering the blow back from my actions.
If I phone in and things escalate because of it, I potentially lose 2 innocent members of my family because he will isolate them from me.
If I don't phone in and isolate myself from him, I either potentially lose 2 members of my family to the same or worse reasons, or, myself and other members of my family have to let this guy walk all over us because he holds a kid as a bargaining chip.
But lets keep out of the personal impact this will have on me/my family, I posted my concerns here because I know this guy applied for a license, and I don't think he is the type to have one. That is my personal call, you can dispute it, sure, but I assure you, I'm not alone on this. I can also tell you that there are others out there who will vouch for him, perhaps they were never threatened by him, or they simply don't care, they are the ones he will use for his application process.
I can't stop this guy from reaching for a knife, or beating someone, but I can "TRY" to get any guns away from him, legally at least. If things ever get real bad, at least there will be a record that I made an attempt to do something, as opposed to nothing like some of you suggest. But if things do get worse, I don't want to be the one riding in with the cavalry 6 minutes after he does something stupid. I could be wrong about this, but I also could be right, and as much as I hate to think that I'm right, I've been right about him before, so this is not just a gut feeling but experience as well.
To all you who want to play devils advocate, be my guest, but I am not the one taking away his privilege to firearms, I am reporting a concern that this person is easily agitated and escalates issues to unreasonable means. IF the CFC has a process in place that works, I hope they reach the right conclusion with it. If the process does not work, then perhaps that will be another point to add to the list why the firearms act must be changed, and changed a lot as you all know.
I did some searching on here to see if anyone brought up anything similar in the past and I did not find anything, perhaps I didn't look hard enough.
What I do know is that if anyone on here wants to see changes in the classification system, or how R/PALs are issue and to whom, you need to look a lot further then just your own actions and drop this myob bs, no single individual will ever be able to accomplish as much as an organized group of people.
Now getting back to the topic, if I do phone in, what comes into play? What should I be ready for? I have witnesses who can vouch for me in case someone says I'm only trying to make this guys life difficult.
How do I protect myself from having him do the same thing to me if he finds out that I phoned in? Is there anything in place to prevent this from turning into an eye-for-an-eye type of deal?
xp
Yes I am torn with what steps to take, and I am considering the blow back from my actions.
If I phone in and things escalate because of it, I potentially lose 2 innocent members of my family because he will isolate them from me.
If I don't phone in and isolate myself from him, I either potentially lose 2 members of my family to the same or worse reasons, or, myself and other members of my family have to let this guy walk all over us because he holds a kid as a bargaining chip.
But lets keep out of the personal impact this will have on me/my family, I posted my concerns here because I know this guy applied for a license, and I don't think he is the type to have one. That is my personal call, you can dispute it, sure, but I assure you, I'm not alone on this. I can also tell you that there are others out there who will vouch for him, perhaps they were never threatened by him, or they simply don't care, they are the ones he will use for his application process.
I can't stop this guy from reaching for a knife, or beating someone, but I can "TRY" to get any guns away from him, legally at least. If things ever get real bad, at least there will be a record that I made an attempt to do something, as opposed to nothing like some of you suggest. But if things do get worse, I don't want to be the one riding in with the cavalry 6 minutes after he does something stupid. I could be wrong about this, but I also could be right, and as much as I hate to think that I'm right, I've been right about him before, so this is not just a gut feeling but experience as well.
To all you who want to play devils advocate, be my guest, but I am not the one taking away his privilege to firearms, I am reporting a concern that this person is easily agitated and escalates issues to unreasonable means. IF the CFC has a process in place that works, I hope they reach the right conclusion with it. If the process does not work, then perhaps that will be another point to add to the list why the firearms act must be changed, and changed a lot as you all know.
I did some searching on here to see if anyone brought up anything similar in the past and I did not find anything, perhaps I didn't look hard enough.
What I do know is that if anyone on here wants to see changes in the classification system, or how R/PALs are issue and to whom, you need to look a lot further then just your own actions and drop this myob bs, no single individual will ever be able to accomplish as much as an organized group of people.
Now getting back to the topic, if I do phone in, what comes into play? What should I be ready for? I have witnesses who can vouch for me in case someone says I'm only trying to make this guys life difficult.
How do I protect myself from having him do the same thing to me if he finds out that I phoned in? Is there anything in place to prevent this from turning into an eye-for-an-eye type of deal?
xp
You read correct my friend. Violence and threats were not in my diagnosis. I admit psycho was not the greatest choice in words. But anywhere there's reason or concern (I.e threats and violence) I would hope anyone in a position to see such a concern would notify the proper authorities to further investigate on the matter.
Just because a call was made does NOT mean guns are instantly revoked. An investigation of the involved parties will guide the outcome.
Cheers
Edit: if all my references as well as my family doctor (who coached me from my mother womb and guided my general health since that day) feel that I am still capable of responsibly handling firearms, then I most likely am capable of it.
Say I went "psycho", who's responsibility is it then to stop me?
Answer: those who are around me in a position to do so.
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And this is exactly what was made with Moncton's shooter, and he was deemed not to be a threat. So obviously, the system is not working. This leaves three possible course of action: do nothing, and continue as usual; not take any chance, and automatically revoke any people of "concern"; or drop the current ineffective system. From what I can read around here, the 'automatically revoke any people of "concern"' seem to be of interest, and this is a legitimate source of concern.
- Location
- Fleeing the Regime
Just going on what has been posted so far, it definitely seems like this dude has serious anger management issues. This MAY indicate that perhaps he is the sort of character that shouldn't have firearms, but that being said, there people I know who get pissed off easily but would never dream of killing anyone - I think...
What is troubling is the fact that he has already threatened you. Perhaps I missed how long ago this happened, but in the OP it was stated that this winner has a known substance abuse problem and has uttered verbal and physical threats. None of my business what his particular problems are, but he sounds more like a crack-head to me. I don't think I would describe many of the stoners I've encountered as being particularly "volatile".
One of my first thoughts was that if this individual has already in fact threatened you (esp. with witnesses), that would be enough reason to report him to the police, triggering an investigation and putting any PAL application in limbo. If LE had any reason to investigate and in the meantime find hard drugs in his care leading to charges, that too would prevent acquisition of a PAL. In the end, the only reason for him not getting his desired licence would be his own actions.
Sounds like it's kind of a complicated situation, though, and hard to know exactly what the blowback to yourself or family could be.
I have to agree with WetCoast's post #42... If you do nothing and all hell breaks loose, who is to blame? If at least you "anonymously" call in to "advise" the CFC of a "potential" threat, then you have done all you can and the ball is now in their court. If all hell breaks loose after doing so, THEN who is to blame? In that event you will also have a paper trail to support your concerns.
One of my primary concerns would be WHY this clown is after a PAL. I mean, we all know he's going to put "target shooting/hunting" on his application, but why do YOU personally think he thinks he needs it? If you think he is one of those hotheads that just likes to boost his ego by shooting his mouth off - that's one thing - but if you think he's needing firearms because he's a ticking time-bomb - that's something else entirely....
Tough situation and while I don't envy your position, I do admire you putting as much of it as you can out there for discussion.
I do agree with others that this should be a sticky and something we should perhaps discuss on CGN more openly and more often.
I know I'm certainly not the only one here that is aware of more than one individual who has a PAL and shouldn't. A PAL, firearms, a car, a dull butter-knife, Q-tips, opposable-thumbs, the ability to pro-create, etc., etc., etc....
What is troubling is the fact that he has already threatened you. Perhaps I missed how long ago this happened, but in the OP it was stated that this winner has a known substance abuse problem and has uttered verbal and physical threats. None of my business what his particular problems are, but he sounds more like a crack-head to me. I don't think I would describe many of the stoners I've encountered as being particularly "volatile".
One of my first thoughts was that if this individual has already in fact threatened you (esp. with witnesses), that would be enough reason to report him to the police, triggering an investigation and putting any PAL application in limbo. If LE had any reason to investigate and in the meantime find hard drugs in his care leading to charges, that too would prevent acquisition of a PAL. In the end, the only reason for him not getting his desired licence would be his own actions.
Sounds like it's kind of a complicated situation, though, and hard to know exactly what the blowback to yourself or family could be.
I have to agree with WetCoast's post #42... If you do nothing and all hell breaks loose, who is to blame? If at least you "anonymously" call in to "advise" the CFC of a "potential" threat, then you have done all you can and the ball is now in their court. If all hell breaks loose after doing so, THEN who is to blame? In that event you will also have a paper trail to support your concerns.
One of my primary concerns would be WHY this clown is after a PAL. I mean, we all know he's going to put "target shooting/hunting" on his application, but why do YOU personally think he thinks he needs it? If you think he is one of those hotheads that just likes to boost his ego by shooting his mouth off - that's one thing - but if you think he's needing firearms because he's a ticking time-bomb - that's something else entirely....
Tough situation and while I don't envy your position, I do admire you putting as much of it as you can out there for discussion.
I do agree with others that this should be a sticky and something we should perhaps discuss on CGN more openly and more often.
I know I'm certainly not the only one here that is aware of more than one individual who has a PAL and shouldn't. A PAL, firearms, a car, a dull butter-knife, Q-tips, opposable-thumbs, the ability to pro-create, etc., etc., etc....
I haven't thought of this actually, but I can tell you for sure hunting and target shooting are the not main reasons for him getting a PAL.
I don't think I need to add anything else here, but if I put all the facts together in my head, the big picture is not pretty.
xp
I don't think I need to add anything else here, but if I put all the facts together in my head, the big picture is not pretty.
xp
- Location
- Fleeing the Regime
I would say then, that you have your answer right there...
IMHO it sounds like this guy getting a PAL would be like pouring gas on a fire. He's probably figuring that getting a gun will make his #### bigger.
"Crack-head with Anger Management Issues that Utters Verbal and Physical Threats and Uses Children as Pawns in his Dramatic and Abusive Mind Games..... ....just applied for a PAL..."
Just my opinion - others should be along shortly.
- Location
- YEG Alberta
Just a thought... Might he have an account with CGN? If so, you may have just alerted him to your concerns and course of action. Not that that course of action should change, but you may need to be extra vigilant now.
I'm not an angry person by any stretch but if anyone made threats against my wife or kids, I can assure you, me making sure their guns got taken away would be the least of their worries.
If there is a question of anyone's safety it's every citizens duty to protect the rights of the innocent and vulnerable.
Substance abuse, history of aggression, already uttered threats, sufficient concern to get this question raised in the first place, A CHILD IN THE MIX BEING USED AS A BARGAINING CHIP?!?!
And you say "leave it be"??
You cannot possibly be serious.
OP, make that call. NOW. If even half of what you described is legit, this guy is a huge red flag. Family, friends and possibly anyone within range could be at risk. At the absolute minimum, the authorities need to know that there's a serious concern before they sign off on his PAL.
Also, if they still issue the PAL despite your concerns... A backup plan to keep the family safe wouldn't be a bad idea, just in case things take that turn for the worse. I definitely don't envy your position - good luck.
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