price to play IPSC
- Thread starter Madness
- Start date
Life it too short,...... time to start doing and less talking. $100-$120 is really not a lot to pay. If you want to change it, you should join and try to get into a position to make the changes you would like. Take the first step and take the course. Take another step and get shooting on a regular basis. Take another step and learn the sport.
**I would like to report that a friend of mine from work JUST purchased a new SP01, mags, holster, CR belt, and Cr mag pouches from Frank at CRAFM. He is a bullseye/PPC shooter. He has intentions of taking the BB. Another guy from work has his pistol and gear and 4000rds of ammo just waiting to take the course.**
Just a week ago, my son who is 14 completed the course. He was worried at first about looking bad in front of other shooters. He had the jam to get over that and got thru the course-safely.
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I was 100% referring to you. This is a Constructive suggestion. I was not flamming you, but pointing out that you have options. Your opinions matter, as do the people replying to this thread who actually participate and volunteer in IPSC and other shooting sports.
**I would like to report that a friend of mine from work JUST purchased a new SP01, mags, holster, CR belt, and Cr mag pouches from Frank at CRAFM. He is a bullseye/PPC shooter. He has intentions of taking the BB. Another guy from work has his pistol and gear and 4000rds of ammo just waiting to take the course.**
Just a week ago, my son who is 14 completed the course. He was worried at first about looking bad in front of other shooters. He had the jam to get over that and got thru the course-safely.
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maxpig said:
I was 100% referring to you. This is a Constructive suggestion. I was not flamming you, but pointing out that you have options. Your opinions matter, as do the people replying to this thread who actually participate and volunteer in IPSC and other shooting sports.
Well since I am an IPSC Shooter and also was local IPSC Club Rep. former R.O. and generally an all around helper when asked and even when not asked ... I think you really are barking up the wrong tree when you think I just enjoy coming here spouting off at the lips and not have a stake in this sport...maurice said:
You should take some of your own condescension and channel it towards something more useful. Like good ideas and not so much flaming..
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Someone compared golf costs to shooting IPSC. I used to golf -alot. Since buggering my back, shooting is about the only sport I can do.
Let me asure you guys, (as always, depending on level) IPSC is a LOT cheaper than golfing.
Match fees, membership dues, and BB courses are all very reasonable in Alberta and as a bonus there are some truely outstanding members volunteering behind the scenes making things tick over like a well oiled machine. Hats off to them, for if it wasn't for members volunteering prices would be far more.
Let me asure you guys, (as always, depending on level) IPSC is a LOT cheaper than golfing.
Match fees, membership dues, and BB courses are all very reasonable in Alberta and as a bonus there are some truely outstanding members volunteering behind the scenes making things tick over like a well oiled machine. Hats off to them, for if it wasn't for members volunteering prices would be far more.
maxpig said:
Only your ideas matter I guess. I thought you were complaining about fees as you seemed to be complaining about start up costs like someone who was new. Most people would not reply to you anymore,...not me, as I enjoy your replies,......they are entertaining.
(*you are spot on about my being condescending though,,...
)all ideas are good... I just hoped they'd stay on track... I invited criticism, I enjoy them when on topic... the topic stated off with high BB costs then digressed into which sport is more expensive to play... although I may think my ideas are good... I don't expect everyone to jump on board and agree and have them implemented... but tell me what is wrong with my ideas or good and build from there ... instead most posts are flames and off topic... I took interest in this thread because it went from BB costs to cost of a round of golf... and as long as I'm amusing to you then at least I can say I improved someone's day todaymaurice said:Only your ideas matter I guess. I thought you were complaining about fees as you seemed to be complaining about start up costs like someone who was new. Most people would not reply to you anymore,...not me, as I enjoy your replies,......they are entertaining.
(*you are spot on about my being condescending though,,...
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maxpig
I enjoy club shoots over in Pr. Rupert but haven't joined IPSC. Why? Primarily I don't see any value in spending the money on a Black Badge Course - period. NO other reason. The course likely has a great deal of value for some and that is terrific but when you consider that no other IPSC jurisdiction to my knowledge has this requirement for membership it appears to me to be a bit of a cash grab...certainly an inpediment to expanding your membership.
It isn't about the amount of dollars. Hell if you don't perceive value for something that costs $5.00 it isn't worth spending the money.
For somebody who is raising a family and is trying to justify spending $600 on a gun he can have fun with in Production, another $200 on a holster, belt and some used mag holders, looking at investing money in reloadig equipment so he can afford to shoot IPSC dropping $150 on a Black Badge Course might well drive hime to IDPA/CDP. Once there and after he gains experience in shooting you are not likely going to entice him in taking a Black Badge because of the value issue.
Personally I would like to see IPSC expand and grow even more than it has but with IDPA and CDP growing and attracting knew shooteres without less up front fees you may face a daunting task.
The Status Quo may not be enough. As Einstein once said, "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result".
Take Care
Bob
I enjoy club shoots over in Pr. Rupert but haven't joined IPSC. Why? Primarily I don't see any value in spending the money on a Black Badge Course - period. NO other reason. The course likely has a great deal of value for some and that is terrific but when you consider that no other IPSC jurisdiction to my knowledge has this requirement for membership it appears to me to be a bit of a cash grab...certainly an inpediment to expanding your membership.
It isn't about the amount of dollars. Hell if you don't perceive value for something that costs $5.00 it isn't worth spending the money.
For somebody who is raising a family and is trying to justify spending $600 on a gun he can have fun with in Production, another $200 on a holster, belt and some used mag holders, looking at investing money in reloadig equipment so he can afford to shoot IPSC dropping $150 on a Black Badge Course might well drive hime to IDPA/CDP. Once there and after he gains experience in shooting you are not likely going to entice him in taking a Black Badge because of the value issue.
Personally I would like to see IPSC expand and grow even more than it has but with IDPA and CDP growing and attracting knew shooteres without less up front fees you may face a daunting task.
The Status Quo may not be enough. As Einstein once said, "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result".
Take Care
Bob
maxpig said:all ideas are good... I just hoped they'd stay on track... I invited criticism, I enjoy them when on topic... the topic stated off with high BB costs then digressed into which sport is more expensive to play... although I may think my ideas are good... I don't expect everyone to jump on board and agree and have them implemented... but tell me what is wrong with my ideas or good and build from there ... instead most posts are flames and off topic... I took interest in this thread because it went from BB costs to cost of a round of golf... and as long as I'm amusing to you then at least I can say I improved someone's day today
Hahaha..........good on ya'! In the end, I think we can agree that we would like to see more people involved in IPSC. No sport is perfect. In my area, I think the thing to keep new shooters involved is recognition of their skill levels amongst their peers. (class awards) NS is doing this at level 2 matches, and they have a good following considering their population.
For the cost of a $6 medal, I think it is worth it.
I am getting more experienced, and I notice new shooters getting satisfaction from doing well on stages.
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Canuck44 said:
how about a proficiency test for those shooters from other disciplines who want to try IPSC?? how that is handled currently I cannot speak to . I do know PPC, CDP will allow IPSC people to participate in their sport, is it the same in reverse??, someone else more qualified than me can answer that..
IPSC is more run and gun...
I don't think getting rid of BB altogether is the way to go there is value there. Making it more attractive and not so much a "cash grab" as you put it is what we need to project to newcomers or cross discipline shooters.
Sorry of this post being a little long:
I am surprised at how many people are complaining about the cost of the Black Badge course. Here is the breakdown of how it work in BC:
The Black Badge course included your first year of membership in the organization. This is a $75.00 value. ($30.00 of this goes back to IPSC CANADA). The $45.00 that the section retains pays for the newsletter, training matters for instructors, RO, team uniforms, etc
The Blackbadge kit cost $25.00. This pays for the manuals, rulebooks, exams, certificate, pin, administration, etc.
So in total the section receives $100.00 for the course.
The instructor in our section charge $125.00 - $165.00 for the course. After the instructor pays the $100.00 fee to IPSC they keep the rest. So they pocket $25.00 - $60.00 for teaching a 12 hour course. This works out to $2.00 - $6.00 per hour to teach the course. That is not a lot of money to cover there time.
For people that have taken the course, $125.00 - $160.00 for a 12 hours instruction, believe that they have received good value for there money.
Canada is the only region that has a Black Badge Certification requirement. I am glad we have the course in place. Thank you to all of the instructors that donate their time and effort.
DVC
I am surprised at how many people are complaining about the cost of the Black Badge course. Here is the breakdown of how it work in BC:
The Black Badge course included your first year of membership in the organization. This is a $75.00 value. ($30.00 of this goes back to IPSC CANADA). The $45.00 that the section retains pays for the newsletter, training matters for instructors, RO, team uniforms, etc
The Blackbadge kit cost $25.00. This pays for the manuals, rulebooks, exams, certificate, pin, administration, etc.
So in total the section receives $100.00 for the course.
The instructor in our section charge $125.00 - $165.00 for the course. After the instructor pays the $100.00 fee to IPSC they keep the rest. So they pocket $25.00 - $60.00 for teaching a 12 hour course. This works out to $2.00 - $6.00 per hour to teach the course. That is not a lot of money to cover there time.
For people that have taken the course, $125.00 - $160.00 for a 12 hours instruction, believe that they have received good value for there money.
Canada is the only region that has a Black Badge Certification requirement. I am glad we have the course in place. Thank you to all of the instructors that donate their time and effort.
DVC
Dvc1911
I think you are missing the point. For some the Black Badge Course is a great value at twice the fee. For others it has little value at half the the going rate.
If you think people are going to pay $125. and get or perceive no value out of the course then I think you may have to review your perspective.
The question was, I think, how does IPSC expand it's membership and are there barriors in the way in making it happen.
Aside from being different I have yet to hear one logical reason why Canadian IPSC shooters need a "Black Badge" course when no other country does, hence my "cash grab" comment. One could argue Americans have more experience using handguns but even then I am not sure that is true, more access but handgun owner vs handgun owner I doubt the average owner has any more experience using the handgun at the range - perhaps even less. What of Italians or Czechs or Sweedes?
Maybe just another symptom of our "Nanny State" where we seem to need verification from a "higher authority" for permission to do an activity. who knows.
Interesting question which will cause a lot of navel gazing I suspect. Left as is, nothing will change and for some that might be OK too.
Take Care
I think you are missing the point. For some the Black Badge Course is a great value at twice the fee. For others it has little value at half the the going rate.
If you think people are going to pay $125. and get or perceive no value out of the course then I think you may have to review your perspective.
The question was, I think, how does IPSC expand it's membership and are there barriors in the way in making it happen.
Aside from being different I have yet to hear one logical reason why Canadian IPSC shooters need a "Black Badge" course when no other country does, hence my "cash grab" comment. One could argue Americans have more experience using handguns but even then I am not sure that is true, more access but handgun owner vs handgun owner I doubt the average owner has any more experience using the handgun at the range - perhaps even less. What of Italians or Czechs or Sweedes?
Maybe just another symptom of our "Nanny State" where we seem to need verification from a "higher authority" for permission to do an activity. who knows.
Interesting question which will cause a lot of navel gazing I suspect. Left as is, nothing will change and for some that might be OK too.
Take Care
So you are worried strictly about the cost of the BB course. As it is shown above I don't see how it is a cash grab. As demonstrated there are people who belive that there is no value to the course and that it is the only thing keeping them from shooting IPSC. Ok fine. IMO that means you don't really want to play. Its akin to saying that its to much hassle to take the PAL/RPAL course I'll just give them up and stay at home. If you are interested in playing in Canada theses are the rules today. If there is a genuine concern about this perhaps you should raise it with the IPSC officials who create the rules. If you think you can get 5 dollars a year fom every IPSC member in Canada to help offset BB and first year membership way to go , hell I'd put in ten. BUT I don't wan't to pay for anyone who does the BB and shoots 1-2 matches and then quits. I think this is a large unspoken point and something that everyone has seen happen. Where does my money go then. I'd be much happier offsetting second year costs instead. Just a thought.
I think that the BB course is much more than a safety tool. It teaches a lot of rules and issues that arn't covered in other disciplines and helps new members, even experianced shooters from being penalized or DQ'd from their first matches. Not everyone can afford IPSC or even IDPA PPC etc, that is a fact of life. I'd love to try being a race car driver, but I can't afford teh course (about USD$30K) Help a guy out
I think that the BB course is much more than a safety tool. It teaches a lot of rules and issues that arn't covered in other disciplines and helps new members, even experianced shooters from being penalized or DQ'd from their first matches. Not everyone can afford IPSC or even IDPA PPC etc, that is a fact of life. I'd love to try being a race car driver, but I can't afford teh course (about USD$30K) Help a guy out
"IMO that means you don't really want to play."
Nope do and do.
Value not cost ...the two are not the same thing.
I can read and learn the rules for free. Points for the safety issue but if it isn't necessary everywhere else why only here. Your statement seems to indicate the course is used to raise money for IPSC...cash grab.
Take Care
Bob
Nope do and do.
Value not cost ...the two are not the same thing.
I can read and learn the rules for free. Points for the safety issue but if it isn't necessary everywhere else why only here. Your statement seems to indicate the course is used to raise money for IPSC...cash grab.
Take Care
Bob
Sosa said:...I don't want to pay for anyone who does the BB and shoots 1-2 matches and then quits. I think this is a large unspoken point and something that everyone has seen happen...I think that the BB course is much more than a safety tool. It teaches a lot of rules and issues that aren't covered in other disciplines and helps new members, even experienced shooters from being penalized or DQ'd from their first matches. Not everyone can afford IPSC or even IDPA PPC etc, that is a fact of life. I'd love to try being a race car driver, but I can't afford the course (about USD$30K) Help a guy out
The Black Badge is a great value. I have no reservations about shooting with a graduate of the Black Badge course.
Now, outside IPSC or Black Badge graduates? That is another story!
Doing stuff costs money. Shooting IPSC costs money.
If you can't afford a Black Badge course then you can't afford to shoot IPSC and this is the wrong sport for you.
If you can afford it but want me to pay for it instead then, again, this is the wrong sport for you.
These are the rules today and discussions like this MAY help change them for the better... also I don't think I or anyone in this thread propossed that we offset fees by collecting more from members ... what I suggested was and it was only a suggestion.. to waive the first year's membership to IPSC for new members... if we use Ontario's break down .. 50 Course Material, 50 instructors and 60 IPSC membership by removing or waiving the 60 for IPSC fees would IMO make it more attractive...Sosa said:...If you are interested in playing in Canada theses are the rules today. If there is a genuine concern about this perhaps you should raise it with the IPSC officials who create the rules. If you think you can get 5 dollars a year fom every IPSC member in Canada to help offset BB and first year membership way to go , hell I'd put in ten. BUT I don't wan't to pay for anyone who does the BB and shoots 1-2 matches and then quits. I think this is a large unspoken point and something that everyone has seen happen. Where does my money go then. I'd be much happier offsetting second year costs instead. Just a thought.
I think that the BB course is much more than a safety tool. It teaches a lot of rules and issues that arn't covered in other disciplines and helps new members, even experianced shooters from being penalized or DQ'd from their first matches. Not everyone can afford IPSC or even IDPA PPC etc, that is a fact of life. I'd love to try being a race car driver, but I can't afford teh course (about USD$30K) Help a guy out
think of it this way.... there are people wanting to play but don't want to spend 160.00... but are willing or would be more willing to just pay for intructors and course material (100.00) because those are hard costs... since IPSC as a whole was not benefiting from their membership fees in the past it really is not a cost to waive the fees for the new member(s) for a year... thus no member would have to pay more to offset the training or membership fees and local clubs can benefit from more people attending their matches and paying match fees ( which IPSC receives fees from)... it's a no load cost to IPSC an incentive of value from IPSC (Canada) to new participants at no real cost to anyone... then the following year it's regular dues... again no one has asked anyone to subsidize the training , material, or match fees. Remember we don't charge anything at all for Futures program in Ontario my suggestion is make adults pay for real costs of BB and waive the membership for first year...
your idea of paying for someone's second year is interesting but where does it stop?? we need to get more people in the door to offset those who are leaving... but most importantly we need to do something different to keep those who are here now from leaving...
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Wendell said:
The Black Badge is a great value....... If you can afford it but want me to pay for it instead then, again, this is the wrong sport for you.
I beleive as you do Black Badge does hold value....
No one has asked you to pay for it.... we're looking at ways to lower the barriers (real or perceived) to new comers.
The IPSC Canada Black Badge course
I have no reservations about shooting with a graduate of the Black Badge course.
In some other shooting sports and on some other ranges, however, I have been so disconcerted by shooter behaviour that I have quickly chosen to leave the range (so that I would not be associated with the event or the behaviour) and before something would happen.
In action shooting, an RO is often effectively limited to being reactive to the shooter and, in a relatively dynamic sport, may be unable to control an irresponsible shooter . So we have a mandatory prerequisite safety course. Without the Black Badge the chances of a shooting injury would multiply, I have no doubt. We cannot afford even one such incident.
Doing stuff costs money. Shooting IPSC costs money.
The Black Badge saves money. The Black Badge saves our sport.
I have no reservations about shooting with a graduate of the Black Badge course.
In some other shooting sports and on some other ranges, however, I have been so disconcerted by shooter behaviour that I have quickly chosen to leave the range (so that I would not be associated with the event or the behaviour) and before something would happen.
In action shooting, an RO is often effectively limited to being reactive to the shooter and, in a relatively dynamic sport, may be unable to control an irresponsible shooter . So we have a mandatory prerequisite safety course. Without the Black Badge the chances of a shooting injury would multiply, I have no doubt. We cannot afford even one such incident.
Doing stuff costs money. Shooting IPSC costs money.
The Black Badge saves money. The Black Badge saves our sport.
