Primer test part deux

[Ganderite]

After testing the CCI450 and the new Wolf primers, I got curious about the other small primers I had on hand. Which are hot? Which are mild?

When loading ball powder in a rifle case, especially if not a full case, I want a hot primer. Logic says the Winchester standard primer would be hot because Winchester used to load almost all ball powder in their factory ammo.

I loaded the primers in 38Spl cases and shot them in the dark. The Federal pistol primer was a short orange flame. The Federal rifle primer was much more enthusiastic, as was the Winchester and the Vitavourri.


Federal small pistol

Federal small rifle

Winchester small rifle

Vihtavourri small rifle

CCI 400 Small Rifle

CCI 450 small rifle magnum

Wolf small rifle

Wolf small rifle magnum

Conclusion: primers are different. Changing a primer could change a load dramatically. If a load does not work, maybe a hotter or milder primer is called for.

 

[ATOM]

Interesting. Thanks for taking the time for that.

 

[luke s]

So wolf small rifle appears to be a small pistol actually?

 

[Ganderite]

"So wolf small rifle appears to be a small pistol actually?"

yes. certainly a very mild rifle primer. I would/will use Wolf small rifle in small rifle cases filled with extruded powder. I will not use them with ball powder or partially filled cases.

I used them in 223 cases with ball powder and had a number of shots where the powder did not ignite. The primer blew the bullet into the rifling, but no BANG.

That is what prompted this investigation.

For my ball powder loads I will use Winchester or CCI Magnum.

 

[Spawn-Inc]

Just curious how the pictures are taken. By which I mean did you record a video and then select an image when the flame is the biggest?

 

[07blackwater]

Don't stop there, please do some large rifle primers as well!

Thanks for the effort.

 

[Ganderite]

How do i take the pictures?

Very easy. If I take a picture with my digital camera in the dark, the shutter exposure is about one second. A long time. I set it to "no flash".

I #### the revolver and hold it out at arm's length, aimed sideways. With camera in left hand, I partially push the release. This turns on the focus assist lamp and focuses the camera. From the lamp beam I can aim camera at the revolver.

Then I push shutter release and wait for the first "click" (shutter opens). When I hear the click, I pull the trigger. From the camera screen i can see if I got the shot. I miss about 1 in 10. I load the gun with 3 of each case and shoot/photo all 3, so i can choose one well centered in the picture. It is very fast and easy to do.

50 years ago I did the same thing, several thousand times in the CIL ballistics lab. The range was underground, so when the room lights were off, it was dark. We had a Polaroid camera with ASA 1000 B&W film aimed at the side of the muzzle. A chronograph was set up to measure the shot. I would turn off room light, trip the camera (on Bulb setting, holding the shutter open) fire gun, release shutter, turn lights back on. The chronograph would sense the passage of the shot column and also trigger an electronic flash that would freeze the image for the camera.

Another Polaroid took a picture of the occilisacope trace of the pressure transducer. For each shot I would have a picture of the wad column coming out of the shotgun, a velocity and a pressure trace picture.

 

[boltonscouter]

Don't stop there, please do some large rifle primers as well!

Thanks for the effort.

I agree!!! I'd love to see a comparison of the commonly available LR primers done as Ganderite has so beautifully laid out in the original post. I suspected this phenomena was occurring as I loaded up some 303 Brit ammo with identical loads except one set using CCI LR primers and the other using Federal LR primers and there was a huge difference in accuracy. The Federal primed rounds were outstanding! I suspect it is due to better/complete burn of the powder???

 

[Ganderite]

"with identical loads except one set using CCI LR primers and the other using Federal LR primers and there was a huge difference in accuracy. The Federal primed rounds were outstanding! I suspect it is due to better/complete burn of the powder???"

Years of experience using the finest equipment taught me to note that A is better than B (as you did) but not to spend much time thinking about why. If Federal is better than Winchester for that load, note the fact and go with it. Don't argue with the rifle.

The Federal is a milder primer. The RWS is even milder. When shooting extruded powders, milder is often better. With ball powders, the Winchester or CCi would probably work better than the Federal.

This test just demonstrates that the primers are different. tonight is range night, but tomorrow night i will test a batch of large primers.

 

[boltonscouter]

"with identical loads except one set using CCI LR primers and the other using Federal LR primers and there was a huge difference in accuracy. The Federal primed rounds were outstanding! I suspect it is due to better/complete burn of the powder???"

Years of experience using the finest equipment taught me to note that A is better than B (as you did) but not to spend much time thinking about why. If Federal is better than Winchester for that load, note the fact and go with it. Don't argue with the rifle.

The Federal is a milder primer. The RWS is even milder. When shooting extruded powders, milder is often better. With ball powders, the Winchester or CCi would probably work better than the Federal.

This test just demonstrates that the primers are different. tonight is range night, but tomorrow night i will test a batch of large primers.

Yup, you're right ........ if it works, just be happy! What you say above holds water as the powder was Varget. Very interesting test you're doing. Looking forward to the LR section very much. Thank you!

 

[Splatter]

Wow, that Vihtavourri primer is crazy! Optimized for large-ish cases full of icy-cold ball powders, I suppose (6.5x47L uses small primers, I think).

 

[Melnibonean]

So what would a pistol powder like W231 be considered? Ball or extruded?

 

[Splatter]

In my experience, 231 is a ball powder in every sense. A hotter primer makes the powder burn better and cleaner.

 

[paperslayer]

should be a sticky

 

[Ganderite]

I once used the Vihtavourri primer in a load developed with a milder primer. There was a big jump in pressure/velocity.

It would be the perfect primer for cold weather hunting ammo. I don't think it is readily available.

 

[Andy]

Interesting and original, but it doesn't answer the question.

What we really want to know is how different powders might ignite ball powders better or worse, and how pressure might be affected. I assume that's what's meant by how "hot" the primer is.

You can't draw conclusions from flame colour and or/length, unless you can correlate that with the above. All we can really say is that for example Primer A has a longer flame than Primer B.

Still interesting and original.

 

[back40sniper]

Ganderite, I find it odd that wolf primers won't ignite your 223 rounds. I am using them in 6.8 SPC and find I like them very much. I am using Ramshot Xterminator powder and AA2200, wonder if this makes a difference? Should note that haven't tried this combo in cold weather yet.