Primers Backing Out When Fired - Problem

As above - The Lee manual shows ~58 grains as min load. You havent answered previous questions about soot around the neck of the case - this is a sign of an underpowered load. Couple that with undersizing the brass....
BTW - What type of dies are you using?
 
Lyman Dies

I'm using Lyman Dies, but also have some RCBS for other calibers which I haven't used. No burn around the rim of the primer, they just popped out on the 1st 5 rounds. And it sounds like I was at the minimum load based on the Lyman manual, and perhaps below that from other manuals. As to soot around the neck, I don't believe any more than normal, but I'm on my way home and will check it and post back.
 
Sooting

So I checked the 5 fired cases against the factory fired cases. The factory fired cases are a bit back just around the top part of the neck. But the 5 reloaded cases are semi-black the entire length of the neck. The case body isn't blackened or sooty as with the shoulder, just the neck. What does this indicate?

As for weighing the powder, I have the Lyman XP1000 electronic scale with a weight to zero it properly. The scale works fine.
 
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All primers back out when fired. The explosion drives the case forward. The primer can’t back up, because it is on the bolt face, so the only thing that can give is the case shoulder, as the case goes forward. Then, as the pressure builds, that case gets pushed back onto the bolt face.

If the load is very mild, the case does not get pushed all the way back and you see a protruding primer. Usually a dirty neck, too.

High pressure gives a flat primer, not a protruding one.

Go up a grain or two for a good mild load. Each rifle is different.
 
Have you not seen all the posts on these threads which stated the traditional load, since 60 years ago, was 60 grains of H4831 in a 270 with 130 grain bullets?
Of course, anything in the range of 54/55 grains, or less, will not properly expand the case to seal the gas.
 
New Guy Follows The Book

So some of you guys have been reloading for a bit, as per the posts. So 60 grains in .270 is now 3 gns over what Lyman's manual says is a safe load.

Should I be purchasing a few more manuals to see their recommendations. I was on the Hodgson site and there powder recommendations are the same as the Lyman manual. How does a new guy really know what is to low a load or to high a load if you can't follow the manuals???
 
Newer manuals tend to be more conservative than older ones. I would have no hesitation bumping up your load to 57 grains to start. Stay under 60 with the understanding that:
1) Max accuracy rarely occurs at listed max load.
2) Listed max load is a guideline only - your rifle may be different. As a noob, you dont have a clue about how to identify pressure problems.
3) Staying below max gives you some margin in case you make a reloading error.

BTW - You're not out of the woods yet - undersizing your brass is hard on the brass, and the rifle.
 
"Should I be purchasing a few more manuals to see their recommendations. I was on the Hodgson site and there powder recommendations are the same as the Lyman manual. How does a new guy really know what is to low a load or to high a load if you can't follow the manuals??? "

The mistake was not the mild load. That was a good place to start with the first load in a rifle. Some rifles develop a lot more pressure than others. Start real mild the first time in a rifle.

BUT, make only 3 of 53, 3 of 53.5, 3 of 54, etc. and shoot a series of 3 shot groups until you run into pressure signs or ammo. Be prepared to go home with ammo that needs pulling. I once shot a rifle that had a catastophic case failure at the published Start load.

Then go back to the bench and make 10 each of what look likes a good place to test.
 
Undersizing Brass?

Happens how? Because resizing die is turned down to much? So if that is the case, I would start over, screw in the die until it touches the shell holder (I know at this position the brass doesn't fit into the rifle) and then do 1/8 turns, try the brass and so on until it fits? Once it fits, do I assume I have the right size brass and no head space issue?
 
waynewjw said:
I guess I need to read my posts twice before I actually post them.

Factory Federal ammo which I purchased new and fired.
The primers in the factory ammo did not back out.

When I set up the resizing die, I had it touch the shellholder and resized some cases. They wouldn't fit into the rifle. So with some research on the net, it seemed that turning the die down another half turn would work, and so it has. The cases now fit.

I took a considerable amount of time setting up and measuring out the powder, so at that point I feel it was 52 grains. Not over or under.

There is no burn around the primers, they are just "popped" out a bit.

So I've now loaded a bunch of rounds between 56.5-57.4 gns in .1 grain increments at 5 rounds each. Hoping this will resolve the issue.

But a new issue may have arisen. I did about 25 rounds and the powder measured out fine. After that the scales seemed to go out of zero. I would reset and they would do the same. So I plugged in the power cord and the unit wouldn't turn on? Now I don't know if I have a defective set of scales or what. They are the Lyman XP1000.

After dicking around with the scales, I shut them off and left them off for awhile. Then I tried again and they seemed to work ok. Is this normal? I don't think so.
Click to expand...

I have a set of electronic scales I got from Cabales and they are not very accurate. weighing powder they can be out half a grain or more. I only use them for weighing cast bullets, and I use my Lyman beam scales for weighing powder.
 
your dies may be out of spec as well... usually its pretty fool proof, if you have followed all the directions and still have a problem and are certain you have followed the directions... measure twice cut once kinda thing, then you have to consider that the tools are possibly out of spec... if you powder is measured correctly it is correct... Lee is a good product but on the lower end of pricing, i have never personally seen a die out of spec, but i do know that it can happen... would be curious to try resizing in another die set and compare the case measurements from every possible angle...
good luck!
also i didnt notice but when you prep the cases, are the flash holes clear and uniform, when cleaning the primer pocket is brass being removed. This part is less likely imo because the primer does have some outward pressure so that it should expand a bit as well and be tighter after firing, but at this point everything should be considered
hope it goes well
T
 
brownie said:
I have a set of electronic scales I got from Cabales and they are not very accurate. weighing powder they can be out half a grain or more. I only use them for weighing cast bullets, and I use my Lyman beam scales for weighing powder.
Click to expand...

I agree, I have MTM electronic scale. I only use it when I'm increasing charges for the first load, I only use it to weight the powder as I pour it into the tray, then I place my tray on RCBS 502 scale and zero it on that, this way I confirm the wieght on 2 scales in between different loads. Less chance of a F*&&^% UP.

Oh ya, I also take out the batteries when not in use, the MTM have a thing for eating battery life when their suppose to be a sleep.
 
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Ganderite said:
All primers back out when fired. The explosion drives the case forward. The primer can’t back up, because it is on the bolt face, so the only thing that can give is the case shoulder, as the case goes forward. Then, as the pressure builds, that case gets pushed back onto the bolt face.

If the load is very mild, the case does not get pushed all the way back and you see a protruding primer. Usually a dirty neck, too.

High pressure gives a flat primer, not a protruding one.

Go up a grain or two for a good mild load. Each rifle is different.
Click to expand...

What Ganderite said is backed up by the Speer #12 Manual. Here is a direct quote: " Primers that back out of the pocket seldom indicate a high pressure condition. In fact, the opposite is more often true; low pressure is likely the culprit. All sporting firearms have a certain amount of clearance between the breech face and the cartridge. This allows a little room for powder residue and dirt to accumulate that may prevent a malfunction when the firearm is used under dirty conditions. When a primer fires , it generates its own level of pressure even before the propellany charge fully ignites. This initial pressure causes the primer to back out of the primer pocket until it is stopped by the breech face. When the propellant charge reaches peak pressure the cartridge case is driven back until it is also stopped by the breech face and the protruding primer is reseated. If the operating pressure is low, there isn't enough force to drive the case back and the primer remains backed out."

Adjust your dies as suggested and increase your charge as suggested and you will likely find sweet spot.

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load_print.asp?printnow=1

Hodgdon online manual shows a relatively low pressure of 59,000 PSI with 60 grains, Compressed, using the Barnes 130 TSX bullet. If you are using Federal Brass it is possible that it will produce more pressure than the Winchester brass used, by Hodgdon, as it generally holds less powder and the load may be more compressed.
 
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waynewjw said:
So some of you guys have been reloading for a bit, as per the posts. So 60 grains in .270 is now 3 gns over what Lyman's manual says is a safe load.

Should I be purchasing a few more manuals to see their recommendations. I was on the Hodgson site and there powder recommendations are the same as the Lyman manual. How does a new guy really know what is to low a load or to high a load if you can't follow the manuals???
Click to expand...

I certainly can't argue with what you say in this post.
The whole thing just seems so ironic. In any other phase of life, the world follows what experience has proven to be satisfactory. There were a tremendous amount of shooters and reloaders in north america, when Jack O'Connor told the world that 60 grains of Bruce Hodgdon's new surplus powder was a great load with a 130 grain bullet, in a 270 rifle. Probably no other load in history caught of like that load did and it had more to do with the great popularity of the 270 than any thing else.
Was it on the verge of being too heavy, or of someone's rifle "blowing up in their face?" No.
A couple of years later, O'Connor announced in his column in Outdoor Life magazine, the sporting magazine with a monthly circulation of about three million, that 62 grains of H4831 in a 270 with 130 grain bullet, was an even more accurate and better load, than was 60 grains.
I have stated this before, but the load of 62 grains did not go over well, because it was too hard to get 62 grains of H4831 in a 270 case.
So, what does a new reloader do, when his manuals state that 57 grains is maximum? I guess he goes by his manuals and worries that if he should happen to get half a grain more than his manual states ," his rifle may blow up in his face!
 
Too much headspace and light loads may push the primer out of the case to the bolt face. Heavier load with same head space will push the case head back to the boltface, everything may appear normal but now you've stretched the web and lowered the cases lifespan.
Correct the headspace issue and shoot whatever loads you want (to a point).
 
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