Primitive weapons cancelled in AB. Why?

tokguy

tokguy

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Does anyone know why the primitive weapons in Southern Alberta was cancelled?
If it's to get game numbers back up then I'm cool with it.
If it's a policy shift then I'm p--sed.
Let's raise some s--t if it's a policy shift
 
They cancelled our special blackpowder moose seasons in northern BC with the introduction of the inline muzzleloaders years ago. I spoke with the local CO's as to why and was told that a scoped, BP rifle shooting sabots, accurate to 200 yards isn't very primitive. I've seen guys on TV/DVD's make shots with inline's that would stretch a .30-30's reach and how many consider a Winchester 94 .30-30 a primitive weapon?
 
I used an inline with iron sights in the past. Still I do agree. Its a modern gun hands down due to accuracy.

Honestly, I would like to see crossbows get legal for maby a week earler than gun season. I agree 100% they have a strong advantage over bow for the two reasons that you do not half to draw... unless you missed. and they are very accurate and a scope can be used. However Ive owned one and would like to hunt with it but when it comes to gun season... A rifle kinda more seals the deal and is still extreamly enjoyable.
 
Well ain't that a pisser.
I've got a Kentucky and a Hawken and guys who just can't leave well enough alone ruined it for me. Nice....
Way to go guys. Compensating for something? Always got to be first, huh? Christ sakes...
 
Why should it make any difference what the next deer hunter over there is using to hunt big game with?
He/she could be using a Weatherby or a self bow. This should really not have any bearing on your use of a traditional sidelock.

In Saskatchewan & Manitoba this is a non-issue with hunters and DNR.

I think Alberta just took one step backwards on this policy.
 
CROWCA said:
You love your black powder so much use it in rifle season???
Click to expand...

I do, on a regular basis. Patched roundball on top of hornets nest and ffg.

The bp seasons in AB were in the eastern zones where they were issueing the cwd, "extra" tags. They've eliminated all of those and unfortunately the bp season with them.

Simple explanation as I see it, in AB the bow lobby seems to have the ear of srd. Personally I'd like to see a true primitive weapons season(longbow and flintlock) followed by an, "advanced primitive" season(compound, crossbow and percussion, (maybe shotgun?)), then the regular rifle season (inlines and rifles).

That way all the weapons would have similar range for the season. I'd also like to see when you enter the draw for the draw to include your season of choice. With our greatly increased population the bow guys are going to have to learn to share, wether they like it or not! Breaking down the seasons something like I mentioned would spread out the demand. I'd much rather draw a mule buck tag every second year for a 1-2 week season than wait 4, or soon more years.

It's always irked me that it's possible to purchase a general bow tag and hunt with it from August to January, switching weapons with the calender, while dedicated rifle hunters get 4 weekends(in the S.) Many compound bow hunters are now shooting 60+ yards. That's further than I'd shoot a patched ball flintlock at a deer.

Unfortunately, not likely to change soon. They're Finally starting to put some bow seasons on draw. About time. One only has to look at the draw results to see the need.

Obviously I'm suggesting general suggestions which would have to be tweaked for both tag demand, success rates, and srd's wanted harvest by wmu. That tired arguement about holding a draw has been outdated with the modern compounds. They're to a bow what an inline is to a muzzleloader. They share the name, but that's about all.

Now listen to the spoiled bowhunters whine. :nest:
 
Simple explanation as I see it, in AB the bow lobby seems to have the ear of srd. Personally I'd like to see a true primitive weapons season(longbow and flintlock) followed by an, "advanced primitive" season(compound, crossbow and percussion, (maybe shotgun?)), then the regular rifle season (inlines and rifles).

Thought much the same. Think the idea has merit.

That tired arguement about holding a draw has been outdated with the modern compounds. They're to a bow what an inline is to a muzzleloader. They share the name, but that's about all.

This too is true. I often have this argument with other bowhunters who continue to try and peddle the compound as a primitive weapon. While it may be "primitive" compared to a centerfire or an in-line bp rifle, its a night and day difference compared to longbow/recurves and flintlocks.
Primitive seasons are there for those of us who want to increase the challenge of the hunt, and to re-live a time when life was simpler (and for many far more appealing). The modern versions of the weapons intended for these seasons have far outgrown the original ideals and motives that created these seasons in the first place.
 
Now that all the haters have sounded off.

I had the area biologist at one of my shoots and I asked the same question. The early season was just a bonus tool (oppurtunity) to manage the herd (excessive population / chronic waster issues). It was never a permanent thing.

As most Alberta folk noticed, the deer population in the WMU's from Lloyd to Med Hat were way down due the initial helipoach, numerous tags, and consecutive extended seasons. The nail in the coffin was that last brutal winter and the estimated 50% mortality.

Not only is the primitive season gone, but no more extended hunting until 20 Dec, everything is pretty much back to "on draw"basis. Gone are the days of the ANTERLESS WHATEVER WITH WHATEVER / WHENEVER tags.

So put away your tinfoil hats boys.
 
No tinfoil needed. The local F&G has suggested/recommended a primitive bp season every year at the agm for years and years. It falls on deaf srd ears. Meanwhile until this year the bow seasons have been continually expanded.

That's not tinfoil, that's abject favoritism, and it needs to end.
 
hakx said:
Now that all the haters have sounded off.

I had the area biologist at one of my shoots and I asked the same question. The early season was just a bonus tool (oppurtunity) to manage the herd (excessive population / chronic waster issues). It was never a permanent thing.

As most Alberta folk noticed, the deer population in the WMU's from Lloyd to Med Hat were way down due the initial helipoach, numerous tags, and consecutive extended seasons. The nail in the coffin was that last brutal winter and the estimated 50% mortality.

Not only is the primitive season gone, but no more extended hunting until 20 Dec, everything is pretty much back to "on draw"basis. Gone are the days of the ANTERLESS WHATEVER WITH WHATEVER / WHENEVER tags.

So put away your tinfoil hats boys.
Click to expand...


Welcome to the reality of reduced deer herds. Manitoba has gone from 6 seperate tags (rifle,ML,archery, special ML and antlerless) to one general tag this year. Deer numbers seem to be way down across the west and it seems to me that all the liberal seasons and bag limits the past decade are coming back and biting DNR's in the ass. Now they're scrambling to stabilize the downturn but I don't think they've taken into account the increased population across the west as well as the impact of unregulated Metis and Native harvests. How can they monitor game seasons when they don't know how many animals are really getting harvested, throw in the increased amount of deer/car collisions and a bad winter and it's no wonder they're cancelling stuff.:(
 
hakx said:
Now that all the haters have sounded off.

I had the area biologist at one of my shoots and I asked the same question. The early season was just a bonus tool (oppurtunity) to manage the herd (excessive population / chronic waster issues). It was never a permanent thing.

As most Alberta folk noticed, the deer population in the WMU's from Lloyd to Med Hat were way down due the initial helipoach, numerous tags, and consecutive extended seasons. The nail in the coffin was that last brutal winter and the estimated 50% mortality.

Not only is the primitive season gone, but no more extended hunting until 20 Dec, everything is pretty much back to "on draw"basis. Gone are the days of the ANTERLESS WHATEVER WITH WHATEVER / WHENEVER tags.

So put away your tinfoil hats boys.
Click to expand...


x2..... I worked for a local outfitter caping for the last 20 years. on average I would do 20 heads for him..I am in the affected zones just west of the now bygone bp season.In 2008 I caped 20 heads..2009 was at 13 heads,2010 was at 7 heads..2011...none at all...I started a thread in here in the winter of 2010 and got flamed for it. I stated the population was dropping and the extended season ( an supp tags) had to end and take it back to what it used to be. The deer population was taking a brutal beating with all the tags being handed out and the extended season also.The winter kill of 2010/2011 was the final draw.

We had deer running down the street in town munching on anything they could find. An most of them were whitetails,and whitetails dont survive eating trees.The winter kill was higher then 50% according to what I read and the fish cops I talked to.It was in the range of 70% or so.

I got flamed by city folk who wanted the extra day of hunting,along with lots of tags to fill there freezers full of meat,as well as the longer season to give them more time to hunt...but the end result was a decimated deer population..

For the record I dont deer hunt anymore,havent in over 10 years. I bought a bp rifle this spring and looked to see if there was still a season for it cause I thought it would be cool to take bambi out with a bp rifle. No more season so what the hell...I dont have a problem with that. If its closed and helps bring the deer population back up I am all for it. That just means I dont spend my time looking for a elusive deer that simply doesnt exist in any great numbers right now.Might be 5 years till I bag a deer with the bp...but thats OK with me..

City hunters might flame me for this post...but thats OK...I live here and you dont,I see the damage done by the extra tags and extended season + the winterkill to the deer population...Give the friggen deer a chance to recoup,it will take 5 years or so...just my .02 worth..
 
Suka said:
I do, on a regular basis. Patched roundball on top of hornets nest and ffg.

The bp seasons in AB were in the eastern zones where they were issueing the cwd, "extra" tags. They've eliminated all of those and unfortunately the bp season with them.

Simple explanation as I see it, in AB the bow lobby seems to have the ear of srd. Personally I'd like to see a true primitive weapons season(longbow and flintlock) followed by an, "advanced primitive" season(compound, crossbow and percussion, (maybe shotgun?)), then the regular rifle season (inlines and rifles).

That way all the weapons would have similar range for the season. I'd also like to see when you enter the draw for the draw to include your season of choice. With our greatly increased population the bow guys are going to have to learn to share, wether they like it or not! Breaking down the seasons something like I mentioned would spread out the demand. I'd much rather draw a mule buck tag every second year for a 1-2 week season than wait 4, or soon more years.

It's always irked me that it's possible to purchase a general bow tag and hunt with it from August to January, switching weapons with the calender, while dedicated rifle hunters get 4 weekends(in the S.) Many compound bow hunters are now shooting 60+ yards. That's further than I'd shoot a patched ball flintlock at a deer.

Unfortunately, not likely to change soon. They're Finally starting to put some bow seasons on draw. About time. One only has to look at the draw results to see the need.

Obviously I'm suggesting general suggestions which would have to be tweaked for both tag demand, success rates, and srd's wanted harvest by wmu. That tired arguement about holding a draw has been outdated with the modern compounds. They're to a bow what an inline is to a muzzleloader. They share the name, but that's about all.

Now listen to the spoiled bowhunters whine. :nest:
Click to expand...

The only surprise is how long it took, and now that approach will undoubtedly cross provincial boundaries. When inlines first appeared with synthetic stocks, match triggers, sabot bullets, powered with Pyrodex pills, and sighted with scopes, it didn't appear to me that they represented the intent of the black powder season, their only disadvantage to a cartridge gun being the amount of time to reload. Similarly some rifled shotguns are better rifles than many traditional deer rifles.

By the way, I like your idea of a primitive and advanced primitive season.
 
hakx said:
Now that all the haters have sounded off.

I had the area biologist at one of my shoots and I asked the same question. The early season was just a bonus tool (oppurtunity) to manage the herd (excessive population / chronic waster issues). It was never a permanent thing.

As most Alberta folk noticed, the deer population in the WMU's from Lloyd to Med Hat were way down due the initial helipoach, numerous tags, and consecutive extended seasons. The nail in the coffin was that last brutal winter and the estimated 50% mortality.

Not only is the primitive season gone, but no more extended hunting until 20 Dec, everything is pretty much back to "on draw"basis. Gone are the days of the ANTERLESS WHATEVER WITH WHATEVER / WHENEVER tags.

So put away your tinfoil hats boys.
Click to expand...
That's the answer I wanted ( and suspected).
The winter from 2 years back was a good one for the coyotes and a killer on the game.
I'm good with standing down to let the game numbers recover.
 
If numbers are down it makes no sense to cancel the primitive seasons. If the goal is to provide a maximum number of hunter days afield would it not make more sense to trim the rifle season? I assume the harvest per unit effort is much lower with primitives then with modern rifles? IMHO seasons for bow and primitives should be first priority and then if there are deer left over add a rifle season. The reason for this is that a short rifle season will retain less hunters in the long term then will a long bow/primitive season. Another reason is that the primitives allow for more flexibility in terms of where hunts can be conducted with out saftey issues. i.e you need a crop of bow/primitive hunters in Alberta to manage near urban populations.
 
I actually visited with a helpful officer from Alberta Fish & Game after lunch. On a Saturday no less...guess no more #####ing out the Fish cops, eh?
He said he was not sure the reason why the Primitive weapons season was cancelled. I respectfully asked if there was someone above him that I might file a complaint with. The officer said that the Biologists held a lot a power in the decision and gave me a number and name to contact with further questions.
He said he thought it might not be game numbers as policy from Edmonton.
I'll make a phone call on Monday and see if we can get this ball rolling.
Anyone with me?
 
I am pretty sure the season was cancelled b/c the increased cwd killing was deemed ineffective in stopping the spread...since the primitive season was a tool to help meet cwd kill quotas...it went out the window.

On another note...an officer said that biologists hold alot of power? The ones that work for F&W?? In Alberta?? That doesn't sound likely.

(I am sure that is what you were told...it just doesn't reflect reality...IMO)
 
Ontario the great lots of seasons lots of tags!!!!!!!!!!!!They don't care they just want your tag money?
 
In Alberta Fish & Wildlife (NOT fish and game) the biologists make the recommendations for bag limits and seasons. They do go up the line to edmonton and have to be approved by bureaucrats and politicians.

Enforcement officers have little to do with this process. They all have their opinions as to why things happen and can express those opinions.

Asking a question on here about why Fish and Wildlife did something is like fishing in the ocean, you never know what you will get.
 
Suka said:
No tinfoil needed. The local F&G has suggested/recommended a primitive bp season every year at the agm for years and years. It falls on deaf srd ears. Meanwhile until this year the bow seasons have been continually expanded.

That's not tinfoil, that's abject favoritism, and it needs to end.
Click to expand...

The bow season for mule deer is going to get shortened or at least less people will be out there hunting them any ways it's going on draw for archery in lots of zones.
 
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