Problem resizing 300 WSM brass fires in two Remington 700 rifles

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RSA1

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Hi,

I am trying to understand why we cannot correctly resize once fired Winchester 300 WSM brass down enough to fit the two respective Remington 700rifles in which it was originally fired. I helped two friends to reload their once fired Winchester 300 WSM brass. Each had tow boxes of 20 cases, fired in their. The facts are as follows:

1) We used a new set of Lee and RCBS dies, and did full length resizing (firm contact of the die against the shellholder + 1/8 more turn of die down into the press), fitted to a RCBS RockChukker and Lee Classic cast press respectively.

2) When I saw the brass before resizing, ALL 4 boxes of fired brass showed a very clear ridge in the web of the case head area, about 4-5mm above the bottom (headstamp) area.

3) This ridge is prominent enough that it can be seen and felt when a finger nail is moved over it. This ridge measures about .563" in Remington Rifle #1 and about .560" in Remington Rifle #2. The full length resizing does not touch this section of the brass, as it is in the area where the die touches the shellholder (of both dies). We used a Lee shellholder with the Lee dies, and RCBS shellholder with the RCBS dies. Maximum SAAMI dimensions indicate .555" for the 300 WSM in this section of the case, while the various unfired Winchester ammo measures about .548" in the corresponding area on the case.

4) We used four different calipers and only had a maximum variation of .001". This means that there is at least .005" and .008" too much expansion on the fired cases, over SAAMI maximum case diameter.

5) When asked, both friends indicated that they both had difficulty to open/lift the bolt handle of their rifles, after firing the factory ammo, and NO reloads have been fired. They bought their rifles NEW at the same and think it could even be from the same batch at the dealer.

6) All cases are just under 2.10" after resizing, and thus fine.

7) Resized cases (full length resized) will not chamber in either of the two rifles.

I personally believe the chamber dimensions of these Remington 700 rifles are too large.

Please share your informed thoughts. Thank you,

RSA1
 
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THis pressure ridge you are describing is normal in most production rifles. Custom chambers are usually somewhat smaller.

But...many dies are not sizing these cases back down enough to original specs. Can you close the bolt on a resized case?

If so, the extra size at the bottom of the case is inconsequential.

If you cannot close the bolt, the problem is most likely the length of the case not being reduced enough, rather than the base dimension that is causing the trouble.

I have seen a number of WSM dies that did not make a fired case short enough, and required a special, thinner shellholder or removal of a small amount of material from the bottom of the FL die.

I could go into a bit of detail on the physics of the situation, but if the resized cases do not chamber in the same rifle they were first fired in, it is unlikely that pressure ring at the bottom that is at fault.

Regards, Dave.
 
When firing, the SAAMI maximum pressure a WSM reaches 65000 psi. Lots of stories came forward about factory WSM ammo being hot or above this limit. I personally cannot say what pressure I have witnessed with factory ammo [didn't measure it] but do believe it was considerably more than 65000 psi.

Barrel steel expands and contracts when a round is fired.
Brass expands and contracts when a round is fired.
Normally, the amount of barrel steel expansion is lower than the amount the brass contracts. In a WSM at full pressure this may not occur in a significant amount.
This means the barrel steel is squeezing the brass enough for you to really notice a stiff bolt lift because your rifle is working hard to pull out that case.

The web area you are referring to on a WSM is fairly thick but does expand when fired. This expansion can be more than it should be and the result is an alarming and difficult to resize large diameter web. Full length sizing fools many reloaders that have not reloaded 300 WSM because of die adjustment and press flex. On most regular full length WSM sizing dies [and other fat cases with thick brass], the shell holder MUST contact the die when being sized. Normally screw in the die two more turns and your good to go. Often this isn't enough and further diagnosis is required.
 
Hi,

Thank you for the comments:

Eagleye, I should have stated that the case length was checked and found to be adequate, and my opening comment has been updated, also indicating that the resized cases do not chamber with normal bolt manipulation. Please explain the "physics" which you refer to. I did pass chemistry and physics when doing my two B.Sc degrees, so may just follow your line of thought.

PEI ROB, all the cases were full length resized, with the shell holder firmly against the bottom of the die. It serves no purpose to screw the die in another 2 turns, as it is already firmly against the bottom of the die when correctly adjusted for full length resizing (as both indicated by Lee and RCBS in their instructions).

Will grinding a bit off the top of the shell holder not cause shoulder setback, as the case will go in deeper than was intended by the manufacturer?

Also, can a fired case expand so much in a correctly sized chamber, when using Winchester factory ammo, that the ridge in the web is tactile and visible?

RSA1
 
Seems you already know the answers by your last post...
However as I read your first post I'm a little confused; you stated the complete history of the brass and what you did to it then question if the chambers are oversized. Now I have several degrees in Jack Sh_t and skipped out of most physics classes but I fail to understand how an external resizing die could possibly contribute to expanding a case...
Where are you seating your bullets?
It kind of sounds like your ramming it into your rifling, but that's just my armchair guess.
If you messing with an empty case it sounds like your shoulder needs to be set back a bit...
 
I tried resizing Winchester .300 WSM thru a Forster full length sizing die. The bolt on my Tikka T3 is next to impossible to close. I never even bothered trying any other remedy and bought some new Nosler brass instead.
 
OK, I will make an attempt to explain what happens when you size those cases.

First though, it may NOT be enough that the shellholder make gentle contact with the bottom of your die.
You may have to screw the die in a bit more [NEVER two turns, BTW!] until the press has to "bump" over a bit.
Usually I try about 1/8 of a turn at a time. Even the best presses have a small amount of spring to them that is only apparent when you are actually sizing a case.

When you FL size a case, and the shoulder is not touched by the die, the shoulder can "bulge" slightly as the shoulder/body junction of the case is squeezed inward.
This effectively makes the case slightly longer from the base to the datum line on the shoulder.
When you try to chamber this case, it is too long to the shoulder [Not the length from base to top of the neck], and you cannot close the bolt on it.

Properly adjusted FL dies just touch that "bulge" on the shoulder and move it back to the proper dimension. Then the case can be chambered.

As I said in my first post, I have seen some 300 WSM's that could not be sized enough to chamber without removing about .005" off the bottom of the die, or
installing a thinner shellholder, available from some sources.

Regards, Dave.
 
Well, I was going to add my extensive experience with the WSM case and how it often needs to be "effiung full sized" but Eagleye beat me to it.

Eagleye is very knowledgeable and I can't add much else.

Adjust the die till it hits the shellholder, then drop that die down a bit more. The Press will cam over/flex whatever. The WSM cases need it sometimes.
 
Please post pics wrt to item #3 in your description.

Do you have access to a runout gauge?

Is this ridge concentric with the case of only on part of the case?

Assume that you have issues trying to chamber the empty case after FL sizing?

Assume that fired brass will not easily chamber?

Please include a picture of a few primers in the fired cases.

Did you try using the Lee SH with the RCBS FL sizer and vice versa?

Jerry
 
eagleye has spoken however since you are using a Remington 700 but I will offer my 2 cents which may round off to zero.

Remove the firing pin from the bolt. This allows the bolt to drop freely.
Screw the die body to the shell holder and as Dave said, keep proceeding 1/8th turn at a time until the bolt falls freely with the resized case in the chamber.
An RCBS press will cam over but if you can not get the resized case to chamber after the cam over it is time to discard that brass or try a different brand.
You may wish to contact RCBS to see if they have had previous problems or a solution.
 
THIS PROBLEM is fairly common between dies and rifle chambers, although within Sammi specs they are not exactly the same size. I have had this happen a few times, the fix is SHORTEN YOUR DIE 0.020 this takes care of the problem and allows you to adjust the die to where there is just a very slight pressure required to close the bolt. The die can be shorten in a lathe or a bench grinder if your careful and then clean up the sharp edges at the base of the die.
Enjoy.
 
Yeah, I am going to have to side with the folks that say the casing is too long, as measured to the shoulder, and not OAL.

Screwing the die down beyond first contact with the shell holder does add just a bit more to the shoulder bump. Not sure if it is the metal of the die being compressed ever so slightly or what, but there is a difference in my dies between straight contact with the shell holder, and contact + a 1/4 turn of about 10 thou IIRC. I've doubled the life in my cases by being precise with my shoulder bumping back only .001 from the fired case dimension. Case chambers as smooth as factory.

One thing that I find concerning is the stiff bolt lift from factory ammo. I've made some hot loads with heavy bullets in my 300 before, so I know what a stiff bolt lift feels like, but have never had a stiff lift with factory ammo.
 
Actually, the ammo loaded for the WSM is often on the warm side.

I have a Vanguard S1 in 300 WSM, and 2 lots of Federal and one lot of Winchester ammo all left ejector hole marks on the head of the fired case.

Bolt lift was noticeably harder than that of my Handloads.
I do not normally use Factory ammo, but this rifle came with several boxes, so I fired some, but pulled the rest down for brass.

My BIL has a Winchester M70 is 300WSM, and it does the same with some factory ammo.

Regards, Dave.
 
I too have had many issues loading the .300WSM. First is Federal brass gets the pockets blown out in one factory firing so it is avoided entirely. Second is the tight bolt closing that I think you are referring to. When reloading for different guns, it is imperative to have the gun on hand to ensure the shoulder is bumped enough to close the bolt with little to no resistance. Third is the sizing lube must be a wax based such as lee sizing wax or Imperial sizing wax ect and the inside necks must be lubed very well. If not the expander ball is really difficult to extract and I believe partially, if not entirely causes to shoulder bump issue pulling the whole shoulder out a bit. The brass is very thick and does not give at all. Also I have had once fired Winchester brass that would not size without the wax lube. Used RCBS and Lyman spray which caused stuck cases no matter how much was used. On another note I load the 7WSM and have no such issues. Very nice to reload?
 
You could try a small base die if you can find one. They should work the brass further down than a FL die does and possibly a bit more of a shoulder bump.
 
As Shorttrac mentioned, do you lube the inside of the neck (and inside only, never the outside of the neck) of the cases before you resize? You must do it
 
I have a 300 wsm. I also use rcbs FL resizing die. I to HAD the same issues. Shoulder was my problem. Cut .015" off the die on my lathe. Re adjusted the die. Never had a problem since. Simple as pie. Don't over think it
 
Hi, just some update on this saga:

1) I have been offered once fired 300 WSM brass by two different people at my club (Burlington Rifle and Revolver Club - Thank you guys) and will collect these tomorrow evening, and try resizing / reloading these, and measure case dimensions. Will keep you informed.

2) I have found the following cautionary note, regarding pushing the shoulder back more, in "The ABC's of Reloading", 8th Ed., page 39-40:" .....this occurs in a rimless case such as the 30-06..... where improper use of the sizing die forces the shoulder back on the case body, allowing the case to go further into the chamber than it should. If this practice is continued, it is only a matter of time until a rupture occurs with all the grief that goes with it." I will therefore not recommend this practice. It may solve one problem, but lead to another.

Anyway, thank you all for your input.

RSA1
 
RSAI; We are not suggesting that you push the shoulder back excessively, only just enough to facilitate chambering.

The caution you quote is for those who push the shoulder back MORE than is necessary to chamber the case easily.

Your dies are not even contacting the shoulder of your cases, let alone pushing them back far enough to cause excess sizing.

Experience has shown many of us that the 300 WSM dies are often just a tad long for them to size the case sufficiently to chamber the fired case.
I also suspect that many 300 WSM chambers are cut minimum SAAMI spec.

Removing a few thousandths from the bottom of the resizing die and then adjusting it PROPERLY will get the results you want without in any way endangering you, your rifle, or the brass you are using.

Regards, Dave.
 
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