Production legal mod?

Icefire

Icefire

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Looking that it's legal to have an extended mag/slide release on a Glock 17 taken from a Glock 23, is it legal to:

Take the extended mag release from the CZ85 Combat and
take the extended slide stop from the CZ75 SP-01 and
put them on a CZ75b ?
 
From IPSC Global Village:

Vince Pinto said:
Production Division - The Underlying Philosophy, the reasons and intent behind PD rules

....And if you have to ask the question "Can I .....?", you're in the wrong division, my son, because it means you want to add, remove or change something, and that's not what PD is all about.
Click to expand...

For the rest of Vince's post, go to:

http://ipsc.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=4114
 
OK, FWIW, here goes: (BTW, for those that don't know, Vince is the Secretary of IPSC and IIRC, a member of the Rules Committee.)

Vince Pinto said:
Production Division - The Underlying Philosophy, the reasons and intent behind PD rules

Hi folks,

Since so many people quote bogus, third-hand, "somebody told me" or "my guess is" reasons why Production Division was conceived and created by IPSC, I thought it's time for me to explain the actual concept and the underlying philosophy, in the order of importance:

1. The Religious Decision: Thou Shalt Not Use Traditional Single-Action-Only Guns!

As you all know, STI/SVI and similar SAO guns have overwhelmingly dominated Open, Standard & Modified Divisions for years. As much as those guns are fantastic for those divisions, we unintentionally failed to provide a competitive division for the hundreds of "regular", not-built-for-competition guns out there. In fact, the message we were sending out was "Come shoot with us, but that gun in your safe just won't cut it".

After we slapped ourselves on the head (like this -----> ) and came to our senses (like this -----> ), Production Division was born!

====================

2. Le Menu, Madame: Le Approved Gun List!

Why? Well, for starters, some people will argue that striker-fired guns like Glocks and the Springfield XD series are SAO, or at least not the same as a traditional DAO or SA/DA gun, whereby you can keep pulling the trigger, which keeps rising and falling without a need for a detonation or having to rack the slide so, strictly speaking, they should be excluded. Of course, these differences of opinion would result in different rulings about those guns from match to match, and this is a bad thing!

Anyway, there was no doubt in our mind that these particular striker-fired guns qualified as "regular" guns, and the Approved Gun List (AGL) tells you they are.

The AGL also allowed us, perhaps in an unscientific way, to reject guns which didn't fit the "I can't define it, but I know a suitable gun when I see it" IPSC Theory Of Relativity On Why Toast Always Falls Buttered Side Down. Hence guns which are "For Team OFM Members Only", or which are only available to "insiders" or other privileged persons, or which are "raceguns cleverly disguised as PD guns", will not be approved.

Internally, we have a "generally available for 1 year" criteria, but this cannot, and is not, carved in stone, which is another reason why we have a Production Division Committee (PDC), comprised of four of the greatest minds in IPSC (and me!), who consider each model on a case-by-case basis and, if thought fit, approve them for listing.

For example, if Glock offer their new Model NN, which is identical in all respects to a Glock 17, except that it's in 38 Super, we'll most likely waive the 1 year period, but not because we love Glock, and certainly not because we're chasing sponsorship dollars which they rarely, if ever, give us. In this case, the different calibre is neither here nor there but, for argument's sake, it helps Regions who can't use 9x19mm (Buon Giorno, Bella Italia!), without hurting anybody else.

By the same token, we approved the S&W M&P series almost immediately after we lovingly fondled them at the 2006 SHOT Show, because it was obvious that the M&P series was going to be huge worldwide with Law Enforcement, and they weren't being "made specifically for Production Division", another class of gun we'll reject. Remember we're trying to appeal to products made by "mainstream" gun makers, not create yet another "cottage industry".

Why don't we have a "minimum quantity produced" criteria? Again, the PDC decides if a particular gun is made for general consumption and not "made specially for PD". In any case, how would we ever know if the manufacturer's declaration is true and correct?

"But how come you're approving guns like the SP-01?", you ask. Because firstly it was not "made for PD" and, secondly, it's basically a CZ75 with a few "acceptable for PD" improvements. Our intention is not to kill innovation, but we do want to limit the extent of features and modifications allowed in PD, and CZ have merely made a better CZ75. They haven't yet invented magic bullets which find the A Zone all by themselves (but I placed an order, just in case).

"But, but, but what about the price tags of some of those Approved Guns?", you ask. Well, how you spend your money is for to you to decide, Rupert! You can buy an improved CZ75 or a Glock for US$600, or you can buy the same thing with more bling for US$2,000 but we're not your Momma, OK?

====================

3. The Answer Is No! Extremely Limited Modifications Permitted (aka TINKERERS & GUNSMITHS NOT WELCOME)!

There were three ways we could have gone. On one hand, we could follow the original (but now defunct) Standard Division method and publish a full list of "Go/No-Go" features. The other way was "Anything Goes Except X". However, after much wringing of hands and scratching of heads, we decided to go with "All Aftermarket Items Are Prohibited, Except Three Minor Concessions" (sights, grips/grip tape and magazines). Personally, I wish we didn't even have those concesions, but at least we still prohibited "chop shop" activities, such as milling of slides to accept sights etc.

Moreover, we even prohibited some OFM items, such as using parts intended only for Model X on Model Y, +2 basepads, add-on magwells etc. The other thing is that we imposed a minimum DA trigger pull test as a simple way to keep people honest in respect of illegal internal modifications!

And don't even think about the term "competitive advantage"! One man's "it's only a cute widget" is another man's "that's the widget I need to become IPSC World Champion", and we'd be back to creating an Accessory List From Hell, trying to classify each item on one side or the other of a "Go/No-Go" list.

PD is based on the notion 1. Go to your local gun store, 2. Select a gun which is on the approved gun list, 3. Pay the nice man, then go straight to a match and shoot the bloody thing. Do not pass Go Faster Stripes Gunsmith. Do not spend an extra $200. Do not use a dremel tool. Improve your match results through practice, not by adding widgets!

And if you have to ask the question "Can I .....?", you're in the wrong division, my son, because it means you want to add, remove or change something, and that's not what PD is all about.

====================

4. Yes Dear, We Intended It To Be A 9mm Division!

Why? The single biggest problem facing IPSC competitors attending Major Matches today (and in the future), is the carriage of ammunition on board commercial passenger aircraft. Now if we had Major and Minor scoring, it's clear from the other Divisions that the vast majority of people would chose to shoot Major calibre rounds for the higher points available for peripheral hits on paper targets, but they'd be caught in the same "custom-made" ammo recipe trap.

One definition of "insanity" is "doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different outcome"! By only offering Minor scoring, competitors would be able to use generic factory ammo, rather than having to rely on home brews to make Major!

The idea was that if you had a problem getting your double-the-IATA-5kg-limit of 600 rounds of (whatever) factory brand of 9mm on board your flight to World Shoot, you can buy factory ammo at your destination, and your gun will work just fine and dandy. In other words, rather than perpetuating a known problem of shipping "custom-made" ammo, we found a solution, and all is well in Camelot and the birds are singing ......

"But why didn't you impose a maximum rounds loaded limit?" you ask. Well folks, I personally support the idea because, as I've often stated, some people would sell their first born child if they could load an extra round in their mags.

The limit I proposed was 15 rounds, which I believe is psychologically more palatable than the evil number 10 but, despite my best efforts, the General Assembly has repeatedly rejected the notion (including the 2006 GA!). So be it. The general thinking is that if we had a rounds loaded limit, Governments who don't understand the reason for IPSC imposing a limit (i.e. to eliminate capacity from the gun purchasing decision), would use that as an excuse for tougher (and more silly) gun laws.

====================

5. No Dear, It Was Never Intended To Be A Cheap / Entry Level / Shoot What Ya Brung / (Fill In The Blank) Division!

If it was supposed to be "cheap", we'd have a price limit, but we don't!
If it was supposed to be "Entry Level", we'd exclude accomplished shooters, but we don't.
If it was supposed to be "Shoot What Ya Brung", we wouldn't have an Approved Gun List, but we do.

That's all I have to say about that!
Click to expand...
 
Icefire said:
Looking that it's legal to have an extended mag/slide release on a Glock 17 taken from a Glock 23, is it legal to:

Take the extended mag release from the CZ85 Combat and
take the extended slide stop from the CZ75 SP-01 and
put them on a CZ75b ?
Click to expand...


no; the reason you can put one on a glock is there were models available in that configuration - so you're basically changing a gun from one legal config to another. Re the CZ, you're talking about moving prod legal parts from various guns and using them to assemble a (non-existant) non-legal gun. you can't get a factory cz-75b in anything other than the std config, that's all you get.

BUT, you CAN (now) take the adj sights from the 85C and put them onto a 75...
 
Actually, the final word (we'll call him God) is Nick A. President of IPSC.
Consider Vince the pope. (he'd get a kick outta that...) since he's the head of the production committee. According to Nick at the Ecuador General Assembly, he reserves the right to Veto thier decision.
 
D_ said:
I don't see why you can't.
Click to expand...

it's very simple: you cannot build yourself a new gun from prod-legal guns, and a cz-75b with extended mag release and extended slide release IS a new gun, it doesn't exist anywhere, as a factory configuration. that's the reason.

(but let's not get started on the prod legality of the cz-usa parts...)
 
Well the glock parts for the G17-22 are from the G34-35.

I guess CZ could just put the for sale as options on their website since it's pretty much the same guns.
 
Icefire said:
Well the glock parts for the G17-22 are from the G34-35.
Click to expand...

the idea is that, apparently, some police force SOMEwhere, wanted those configurations, so they got them from glock, so now, forever and ever, Glock 17s with extended <fill in the blank> count as "factory options".
 
So if Production division is supposed to be what was laid out in Vince's post, what do we call the totaly bastardized division which we call production today? Non single action Standard Division?
" (aka TINKERERS & GUNSMITHS NOT WELCOME)!" so what do you call all the folks working on CZ's these days?
"PD is based on the notion 1. Go to your local gun store, 2. Select a gun which is on the approved gun list, 3. Pay the nice man, then go straight to a match and shoot the bloody thing. Do not pass Go Faster Stripes Gunsmith. Do not spend an extra $200. Do not use a dremel tool. Improve your match results through practice, not by adding widgets!" He forgot to mention the step where you get an expensive "race holster" that's really only good for shooting IPSC.
And if you have to ask the question "Can I .....?", you're in the wrong division, my son, because it means you want to add, remove or change something, and that's not what PD is all about. Unless you just want to add,remove or change, your grip surface, sights, mag release, slide lock springs and or a few trigger components, but remember, "TINKERERS & GUNSMITHS NOT WELCOME"

The idea was solid but doomed from the start. The amount of tinkerers and gear heads in the sport helped drive the evolution of the pistol and now you want to put a division ,in the sport know for twweaking guns, that dosen't allow messing with your gun. Thats like being told to stop laughing while you're laughing your ass off. When ever someone gets a new production gun, they always want to know what they are allowed to do, and thats the problem. The answer should be nothing, shoot the way you bought it, but how do you inforce that? You can't, which is why they left a few openings for modifications which led to a few more.......
We need to keep the division, its great for getting new fisrt time shooters and cross over shooters from other sports, but their needs to be some work done if we want to keep it that way.
 
They should just call it double action division and allow more mods... this crap where some factory guns can have some stuff and some cant..sort of doesnt level the playing field, or forces you buy a few types of guns..
 
Personnaly, I have a hard time pushing on the mag/slide release on the CZ, Which I didn't mind when I wasn't shooting IPSC but now, I need to completely change my grip to change a mag and I don't have small hand.

I thinks OFM part in production is still with the intend of the division, sights, extended mag/slide release just help shooters with smaller hand shoot a gun someone with bigger hand could. I'm not talking about homemade 1/2 inch mag release button, just factory options.

Going to standard would need putting the gun SA only (trigger/hammer), add a magwell, thiner grips, extended safety and going major.
 
USP said:
They should just call it double action division and allow more mods... this crap where some factory guns can have some stuff and some cant..sort of doesnt level the playing field, or forces you buy a few types of guns..
Click to expand...

Exactly.. USPSA Production allow you to add factory options and options from other Production legit gun.
 
Icefire said:
Exactly.. USPSA Production allow you to add factory options and options from other Production legit gun.
Click to expand...

in USPSA it's overtly DA first shot, minor scored Standard division.

In IPSC, it's covertly DA first shot, minor scored Standard division.


I just got a new SP01 - I'm toying with the idea of just leaving it exactly as-is, for the heck of it. Ohh, I'll change the sights to non-3-dot, I don't like 3 dot sights, but I'll refrain from anything else... I'll shoot that in Windsor, probably get my ass kicked, but I'll pretend to be a Prod purist :rolleyes: (with a 5.5lb SA trigger, a 17lb DA trigger, a Bladetech holster, the whole works... ;) )
 
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17lb DA trigger, I hear you, I have a real sweet SA trigger on my CZ75b .40 but damn that first shot is hard ;)
 
Hey Omen you gotta admit it depends on what gun you got... some brands have lots of special factory parts other brands have next to nothing. As more bits and pieces seem to be allowed.. why not just allow any double action semi with most mods..short of compenstators and optics etc.?
 
omen said:
it's very simple: you cannot build yourself a new gun from prod-legal guns, and a cz-75b with extended mag release and extended slide release IS a new gun, it doesn't exist anywhere, as a factory configuration. that's the reason.
Click to expand...

Actually that's not quite true, there are divisions within IPSC for virtually any handgun configuration that you might wish to assemble. The rules for production division are certainly contentious, but they are only the rules for production division. If someone feels that they need to have an extensive suite of customizations in order to compete, they are welcome to do so in Standard or Open divisions. Set up your gun however you like so that it suits your needs or desires and then compete in whichever division is appropriate. We need to stop wasting so much energy trying to tweak Production division and just get out there and have fun with our guns.
 
omen said:
the idea is that, apparently, some police force SOMEwhere, wanted those configurations, so they got them from glock, so now, forever and ever, Glock 17s with extended <fill in the blank> count as "factory options".
Click to expand...

Want to really bend your brain?

Why is the competition sear and hammer for the CZ-SP01 production legal? Further, why is the use of the CZ-85s metal trigger with overtravel stop in the CZ-SP01 legal?

Hm.

The test is "produced by the original equipment manufacturer".

In fact, what he proposes to do is entirely production legal.
 
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