Considering the frame is the firearm, not really.m that's like adding plastic grips to a 1911 and calling it a plastic gun... Not really.
Production Optics Div ???
- Thread starter rifleman338
- Start date
Considering the frame is the firearm, not really.m that's like adding plastic grips to a 1911 and calling it a plastic gun... Not really.
Unregistered_
Regular
- Location
- Edmonton, AB
How are you NOT GETTING THIS???? The rules that Sean posted are draft rules that will go straight into a rule book revision when Production Optics is officially tested. As such, the wording will be as it APPLIES TO THE ENTIRE IPSC. Canada has an exemption on magazine capacities that supercedes the rulebook. Hence, the rulebook draft as written and posted by Sean is 100% applicable to every country (including Canada) - we just happen to have another rule that takes precedence regarding magazine capacity.
So in short, what Sean posted is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. And will NOT need amendment.
The GRIP is NOT THE FRAME. I can have a STI frame and put a STI polymer grip on. Or I can put a steel grip on that same STI frame. Thus, FRAME DOES NOT EQUAL GRIP.
Jesus Christ.
Unregistered what was posted had several changes to the original document so why not amend the mag limit as well.
You are right Canada has a legal requirement of 10 rds for the caliber the mag is made for. It is legal to stuff 14 reds of 9MM in a 40 mag in Canada. Production Division has a limit of 10 rds. What was posted was the rules for PO Division and clearly Canadian Law would allow me to participate in PO Division with 14 rounds in a 40 cal mag and the rules posted for Canadian PO now says 15 rds. I get it should have read 10. It really is an easy fix.
One of the best things IPSC brings to the shooting world is a decent rule book. It is clear and concise. Contrast that with what we put up with in IDPA where the RB is anything but clear. When I first read it I figured IPSC was prepared to make a stand on mag limits and I was OK with that. If it is 10 no problems here.
Back to the regular scheduled squabble.
Take Care
Bob
You are right Canada has a legal requirement of 10 rds for the caliber the mag is made for. It is legal to stuff 14 reds of 9MM in a 40 mag in Canada. Production Division has a limit of 10 rds. What was posted was the rules for PO Division and clearly Canadian Law would allow me to participate in PO Division with 14 rounds in a 40 cal mag and the rules posted for Canadian PO now says 15 rds. I get it should have read 10. It really is an easy fix.
One of the best things IPSC brings to the shooting world is a decent rule book. It is clear and concise. Contrast that with what we put up with in IDPA where the RB is anything but clear. When I first read it I figured IPSC was prepared to make a stand on mag limits and I was OK with that. If it is 10 no problems here.
Back to the regular scheduled squabble.
Take Care
Bob
Unregistered_
Regular
- Location
- Edmonton, AB
I can't tell if you're trolling.
First off, absolutely NO ONE here is disputing that you can fit more than 10 9mm rounds into a .40 magazine. Everyone understands it is both physically possible and legally allowable.
Where you're misunderstanding is how this affects IPSC. Take a look at the published and in-use rule book. This is the rule book that you currently compete under the auspices of. Here: http://www.ipsc.org/pdf/RulesHandgun.pdf
Appendix D4 16.2. "Magazines accessible to a competitor during a COF must not contain more than 15 rounds at the Start Signal."
That's the current PUBLISHED rule. Given that rule that you have shot under (for many years before Production Optic was even discussed), has this in any way influenced or affected your ability to use >10 round magazines? NO.
What Sean posted is the draft version of what will go in to the rulebook, under Appendix D6. As such, it is hopefully the FINAL version and will go into the rule book exactly as written. And as written and conceived, Production Optics will follow the same rules as Production (15 rounds magazine capacity limit).
THEREFORE, you are INCORRECT that it should have read 10. It is correct. 15 is the right number. You can have 15 rounds in your magazine. Because it's part of the proposed rule and will hopefully be finalized that way.
HOWEVER, given that you shoot in Canada, this 15 round limit becomes 10. But remains 15 for everyone else not in Canada. A limit of 10 applies ONLY here in Canada, but that is covered by an exemption note from IPSC to IPSC Canada (which covers ALL divisions).
Please read this and understand it: The rule, as written and presented by Sean, is written CORRECTLY. A 10 round magazine capacity limit for all divisions exists that supersedes the rulebook and has been in place for many years now. It will also apply to the newly proposed Production Optics division. So therefore NO edits to the draft is required.
LeadMonkey
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Off The Radar
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ambishooter
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Southeastern Canuckstan
So what mount is available for a CZ 85C and and SP01 Shadowline that would accept any brand of red dot? Something like a universal mount red dot? Is this acceptable? https://www.selectshootingsupplies....oducts/cz-sp01-75-shadow-picatinny-rear-sight I know Springer Precision makes mount for Vortex Venom & Viper, Burris Fastfire II & III, and Docter Optics. But what about for a similar sized Bushnell for AR? This mounts to a top rail, small enough to be sized as the ones I mentioned.
ambishooter
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Southeastern Canuckstan
I know, there is significant added weight. The Springer Precision branded mounts seems to be more compact but requires specific brand red dot. I am thinking of an easier way wherein when you got sick and tired of optics, remove the optics and you are good to go open sight. The CZ Picatinny Rear Sight fits the bill, but it will be significantly heavier with the red dot. I might have to adjust either the recoil spring or powder load.
ambishooter my CZ New Edition had a stock recoil sprig in it. Using my minor loading under a 124 gr bullet the slide was cycling really quite slow with the Springer mount. If I was to use it in a match I suspect I would have a hard time getting through the match without running into a jam of some kind. If you go to a mount much heavier you will definitely need a lighter recoil spring for trouble free cycling.
Take Care
Bob
Take Care
Bob
ambishooter
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Southeastern Canuckstan
Thanks for the input Bob.
red magnum
CGN Regular
- Location
- Sundre, Alberta
So the Glock MOS looks like a descent way to get in. Anyone have any experience with how the mount holds up?
I hear from friends in the US the Glock MOS, Walther Q5 Match and the M&P CORE are the more popular Optic mounted pistols. Some have had their frames cut for an Optic on guns that were not Optic ready.
For most, I suspect a Optic ready platform is going to be the way to go. The sight rides lower on the gun and makes the transition to using an Optic quicker. The wrench in that thought is how much the 5# trigger requirement will play in the decision when applied to IPSC Production. The Dovetail mount does add 100% of it's weight to the slide while the Optic ready system reduces the additional net weight as it does not require an additional mount.
I know I initially struggled with the dovetail mount. Dry firing and draws with my Q5 are certainly quicker and easier to acquire the dot then my limited experience shooting my New Edition with the dovetail mount. The downside is folks are going to have to buy a new gun which likely account for the initial move to dovetail mounts.
Lastly, the issue or non-issue of the need for co-witnessing. I don't see it being much of an advantage if your only concerns involve reliability. The sights have been out there and used for competition long enough now to realize they don't fail often. One fellow posted his experience with the Burris111. He had three of them with thousands of rounds on them from shooting steel shoots and had no issues using dovetail mounts on a Glock. I guess if one were to destroy the sight somehow on a run the co-witness feature would be there but barring that the sights have a record of reliability I think I can live with.
I thank the guy who posted the Vortex warranty. The company walks their talk from personal experience.
The Optic Division will end up keeping the over 50 crowd in the games.
Take Care
Bob
For most, I suspect a Optic ready platform is going to be the way to go. The sight rides lower on the gun and makes the transition to using an Optic quicker. The wrench in that thought is how much the 5# trigger requirement will play in the decision when applied to IPSC Production. The Dovetail mount does add 100% of it's weight to the slide while the Optic ready system reduces the additional net weight as it does not require an additional mount.
I know I initially struggled with the dovetail mount. Dry firing and draws with my Q5 are certainly quicker and easier to acquire the dot then my limited experience shooting my New Edition with the dovetail mount. The downside is folks are going to have to buy a new gun which likely account for the initial move to dovetail mounts.
Lastly, the issue or non-issue of the need for co-witnessing. I don't see it being much of an advantage if your only concerns involve reliability. The sights have been out there and used for competition long enough now to realize they don't fail often. One fellow posted his experience with the Burris111. He had three of them with thousands of rounds on them from shooting steel shoots and had no issues using dovetail mounts on a Glock. I guess if one were to destroy the sight somehow on a run the co-witness feature would be there but barring that the sights have a record of reliability I think I can live with.
I thank the guy who posted the Vortex warranty. The company walks their talk from personal experience.
The Optic Division will end up keeping the over 50 crowd in the games.
Take Care
Bob
- Location
- Halifax - NS
The Henning Mounts for the CZ Shadow 1 & 2 just got carried in the door.
https://www.freedomventures.ca/products/henning-red-dot-scope-mount
I think we're already presold out of the Fastfire/Viper/Venom/Docter mount; most are headed to Bullseye in London, Ontario - so you can check with them for inventory - or us (we'll happily tell you which dealers got them)
We do have RTS2 mounts in stock if you're going C-More.
https://www.freedomventures.ca/products/henning-red-dot-scope-mount
I think we're already presold out of the Fastfire/Viper/Venom/Docter mount; most are headed to Bullseye in London, Ontario - so you can check with them for inventory - or us (we'll happily tell you which dealers got them)
We do have RTS2 mounts in stock if you're going C-More.
