Production Start DA/SA

Euro

Euro

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Had a talk with a buddy of mine, he said when he shot IPSC production, they didn't want to use DA at the start/first shot. I went through the rules for Production and found this. English is my second language, perhaps I understood this wrong. If I use a CZ 75, which is a DA/SA handgun, or any other external hammer handgun, does it not have to be in DA during the first round?

Were the range officers just not following this rule when he was doing it?



IPSC Rules pg.56

Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked (see Rule 8.1.2.5), at the Start Signal. First shot
attempted must be double action. Competitors in this Division who, after the issuance of the Start Signal and
prior to attempting the first shot, #### the hammer on a handgun which has a loaded chamber, will incur one
procedural penalty per occurrence. Note that a procedural penalty will not be assessed in respect of courses of
fire where the ready condition requires the competitor to prepare the handgun with an empty chamber. In these
cases, the competitor may fire the first shot single action.
 
It is possible during your black badge course, for safety reason, the instructor asked you to start in single action rather that lowering the hammer when using a pistol like the cz when you don't have a decocker. During a match, any production pistol with an external hammer must start in double action.
 
Antoine22 said:
...during a match, any production pistol with an external hammer must start in double action.
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...provided that one is shooting in Production Division.

If the firearm meets the requirements for Standard Division, one can use the 'production pistol' in Standard Division. And, if not, one can also use the 'production pistol' in Open Division.
 
Wendell said:
...provided that one is shooting in Production Division.

If the firearm meets the requirements for Standard Division, one can use the 'production pistol' in Standard Division. And, if not, one can also use the 'production pistol' in Open Division.
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He knows that, he's a CRO... (Antoine) the OP said his friend was shooting Prod. If his friend wants to shoot a production gun with a single action first shot... then he's shooting STD Min. The RO would change his class and PF to reflect that. We have a gent here, also a CRO doing exactly this. It's perfectly fine as long as you understand how much of a disadvantage it puts you in.
 
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Back in the beginning of PD there were a number of idiot instructors teaching people to throw their first shot on the draw so they could shoot at the targets with Single Action as that was "better". Suffice it to say that is not the case now, mostly, there are still a few morons out there that rattle that stupidity off, but not very many.
Similarly, if during the Black Badge the instructor tells students to not decock and to run their guns in SA, run away from that instructor. They should be teaching the student how to properly use their firearm. If the instructor is not comfortable with teaching that, they shouldn't be teaching, period. If the student isn't comfortable decocking, then, in my opinion, they should not be doing their Black Badge until they are comfortable decocking. Unless they want to shoot Standard 9mm and have stated such.
 
So if your black badge instructor doesn't teach this, which in his case, his BB instructor taught single action + safety. What do you do? Ask for a refund? He told me when he shot in production back in 09/2017, this year. Everyone in production was shooting with SA+ safety at his level 2 event.
 
Slavex said:
...if during the Black Badge the instructor tells students to not decock and to run their guns in SA, run away from that instructor. They should be teaching the student how to properly use their firearm. If the instructor is not comfortable with teaching that, they shouldn't be teaching, period. If the student isn't comfortable decocking, then, in my opinion, they should not be doing their Black Badge...
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If a student shows up at a Black Badge course, having driven for hours to get there, only marginally familiar with their pistol (and IPSC rules), and - until now - this student has always shot their K100D or USP45 single-action only, and is struggling to hit the targets when firing from the double-action first shot, what would you have the Black Badge instructor do? Time constraints do not allow for extensive remedial instruction; would you rather the student be sent home? What does it matter which ready condition this student uses to pass the Black Badge, so long as the student passes it? Isn't it better to successfully pass the course today, and figure out alternate ready positions/Divisions later?
 
To the OP, is it your friend who did not want to shoot double action first shot ? or was it the RO not wanting the shooter to start in double action?
 
Euro said:
So if your black badge instructor doesn't teach this, which in his case, his BB instructor taught single action + safety. What do you do? Ask for a refund? He told me when he shot in production back in 09/2017, this year. Everyone in production was shooting with SA+ safety at his level 2 event.
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Yes or at the very least have a conversation with someone from your IPSC section. There are contact information on each sections (province) websites

Something here doesn't make sense
 
If a person cannot safely complete the Black Badge course, which includes decocking their pistol if that's what they brought, they fail and get to take it again. In the course material I used to send out to students when I was a TCI it was very very clear that the attendee was expected to have a good understanding of how to operate their gun safely. While it was uncommon, I did remove people from class and send them packing, either with a refund or the chance to take the next class, once they knew how to run their gun.
Passing someone who isn't actually competent is a disservice to all of us. Essentially that sounds like a BB instructor just pumping out students who aren't qualified.
Edited to add, when I taught, I didn't care if a student showed up wanting to shoot Standard with his DA/SA gun in SA only with the safety on, if he's got a DA/SA gun he is expected to know how to run it for PD and pass doing so. But that was me.
 
carlchevalier said:
To the OP, is it your friend who did not want to shoot double action first shot ? or was it the RO not wanting the shooter to start in double action?
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The range officer never told them to shoot in DA first, he didn't know because during his BB, he was not told to. Other shooters didn't say anything either in training BB, and on the course. So it starts on the instructor in his case.
 
That RO needs to reread the rules book unless he scored them under Standard Div.?

I'm hardly a confrontational kinda guy but I would have called the RO aside and point out the rules to him/her, failing that I would escalate that to the match director. That RO can't arbitrarily make up rules as they go. If they thought it was a safety issue with some shooters, those shooters need to be re-evaluated for safety. Just my 2cents.
 
I've taught many people the two common ways to put a pistol in double action...start by doing it dry, until you feel comfortable trying it live with the gun pointing safely downrange.

If someone is having trouble with DA, they often haven't changed out their main spring yet on a Shadow.

If the mainspring has been changed and the trigger is at a reasonable weight...spend a few range sessions by repeatedly putting it into DA and practice shooting that first shot by decocking and firing first shot until you get too tired, bored or run out of ammo.

New shooter's often have new guns that can be pretty stiff, so it may take a little time to feel better or get a trigger job to hasten "wear".
 
Just couple notes: In the IPSC Handgun competition rule book it's Appendix D4 note 15 that specifies the DA first shot for Production, page numbers may change with revisions. Also if one is to escalate RO call then the next in line is the CRO (if not available) followed by the RM.
There is one exception to the above DA rule that I can think of. That is when a stage has the gun unloaded and lying on table/barrel etc. After the start signal, you can load and engage in SA.
 
From the rule book:

8.1.2.2 "Double action" – Chamber loaded, hammer fully down or decocked.



APPENDIX D4: Production Division

15. Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked (see Rule 8.1.2.5), at the Start Signal. First shot
attempted must be double action. Competitors in this Division who, after the issuance of the Start Signal and
prior to attempting the first shot, #### the hammer on a handgun which has a loaded chamber, will incur one
procedural penalty per occurrence. Note that a procedural penalty will not be assessed in respect of courses of
fire where the ready condition requires the competitor to prepare the handgun with an empty chamber. In these
cases, the competitor may fire the first shot single action.



8.1.2.5 If a handgun has a decocking lever, that alone must be used to decock the handgun, without
touching the trigger. If a handgun does not have a decocking lever, the hammer must be safely
and manually lowered all the way forward (i.e. not just to a "half-#### notch" or to another similar
intermediary position).


As has already been mentioned in the thread, production division must start with a double action shot ATTEMPT. Exceptions as noted above are if it's an empty chamber start, then you may rack and start shooting without the need to decock first. The described process of hammer back and safety on will not cut it for production, and competitors must not be allowed to start a course of fire in this manner as it is contrary to the approved starting gun condition for production. As listed above, if they start decocked and manually #### prior to attempting a shot this carries a penalty of one procedural per occurrence.

If someone is not comfortable with the DA shot for their own reasons, they can absolutely declare standard minor for the match (or open minor if the gun can't fit in the box/does not meet standard division requirements/they want a real challenge/etc). If they are in fact being taught this, and a club/region is running matches this way then that should be taken up with the regional director and black badge instructor coordinator and corrected since these shooters may be in for a big surprise if they come to a match outside their area!!

Which province is this in?


lonedrone
 
Interesting I was told in my BB course that if your gun is DA/SA like Shadow2 you must do DA first shot. During my BB course the first few things we started training was the load and make ready steps by my instructor as he stated that if you got a discharge here you are done (or worse). So we did spend a while practicing load and make ready. I first got bored since I only use a Glock but then my instructor lended me his DA/SA and had me practice the load & make ready decocking his gun.
 
lavino said:
Interesting I was told in my BB course that if your gun is DA/SA like Shadow2 you must do DA first shot. During my BB course the first few things we started training was the load and make ready steps by my instructor as he stated that if you got a discharge here you are done (or worse). So we did spend a while practicing load and make ready. I first got bored since I only use a Glock but then my instructor lended me his DA/SA and had me practice the load & make ready decocking his gun.
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Pretty much the same deal with my instructor. First day he noticed a couple guys were kinda green with their pistols so at the end of the day he told us all to go home and play with our pistols and learn what every button/lever does and works, get comfortable with safely lowering the hammer as he showed us and become so familiar with the pistol that you could work it blindfolded. Sure enough someone didn't bother doing that by day 2 and was still fumbling with his pistol and the instructor had to prompt him the steps repeatedly. Gotta have a lot of patience and people skills to become an instructor, that's for sure.
 
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