Prohib or non-gun? [PROHIB! Thanks, all]

gunzik

gunzik

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I'm looking for your informed opinion, please!

A good friend has asked me about the legal status of this little gem. It dates back to early WWII Germany, where in the AKAH Katalog of 1939 it was advertised as a "Larimae-Pistole" made by August Schuler, Suhl, Model 33.

It is intended to fire blanks or gas (!) cartridges, and has no chamber. There is a magazine well, into which the "8mm Lacrimae" cartridges are inserted from the top. I would guess it would take 5 or 6. The top cartridge is held in place and against the "chamber end" of the barrel, which is roughly 0.25" but tapered (narrowing) slightly from breech to muzzle. The barrel is smooth bore.

The little guy is double action only, the trigger moves back a large portion (big enough to be a "slide") of the pistol fixed to the firing pin. It whacks the primer on the cartridge, the cartridge discharges something or nothing up the muzzle, and the pressure generated by the tapered barrel ejects the cartridge up and sideways, allowing the next cartridge to pop into place. What looks like the chanber in the photo (sorry, a bit grainy) is actually the built-in magazine follower, fully extended.

Since it is intended to fire blanks (no longer commercially available) or gas cartridges, it could either be a blank gun (non-gun) or a gas gun (prohibited device). If there are no gas cartridges, or cartridges of any kind other than very rare $30-per-shot prohibited ones (gas) from the USA, I'm saying it's a non-gun. But of course it's MY friend and that's what he wants to hear. If it was YOUR friend, what would you call this thing? There is no serial number, hence the makers didn't consider it a firearm.

These pictures are collected from a website which describes the little "pistol" at some length along with other "spy gear". (edit this) httXXp://wwXXw.militaryradio.com/spyradio/misc_clan.html

n19sva.jpg


312jtwh.jpg


Let me know what you think! The last time anyone asked the RCMP about this, the Internet was in its infancy, so their answer was "we don't know what it is". Now, jumping from source to source, we can arrive at a pretty accurate idea. But I still don't know what to tell my friend as far as a legal status goes... keep or crush?

Thank you!
 
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Because there is no chamber, the pressure in the cartridge needs to be quite low. It could indeed fire a projectile, but it would be at less than 500 fps.

The walls of the cartridge look pretty thick, and I suppose if they are steel with a copper wash, there could be some decent pressure contained in such a shell. I'm still thinking less than 500 fps though, regardless of what is propelled. I know you can't have a gas cartridge, but they also made blanks and I'm sure you could shoot chunks of potato or goodness knows what down that smooth bore...

Here's a stolen web pic of the cartridges the little pistol takes. Blank cartridges had a bit of wadding to create the pressure required to eject the used case and make way for the next one... they look simple enough to make. A plastic projectile wouldn't be too scarey to launch downrange, and would probably put a hole in a sheet of paper, though likely not ever two holes in the same place.

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Not trying to be stupid here but if I were you I would let your friend find out this info so that you are not in trouble for giving someone wrong or misleading info. Sometimes itis better to be safe then sorry in these things, even if you are just trying to help a friend.

Graydog
 
graydog said:
Not trying to be stupid here but if I were you I would let your friend find out this info so that you are not in trouble for giving someone wrong or misleading info. Sometimes itis better to be safe then sorry in these things, even if you are just trying to help a friend.

Graydog
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I couldn't believe it myself when he told me he wasn't on CGN! But I guess there are still a few people who aren't.

And don't worry, it isn't MY opinion I'm giving, I was just looking for more objective ones.

Since the nice people in Ottawa read these posts diligently and will even update your information if you post a serial number here, I thought that asking on his behalf could be doubly useful. The nice people may check a bit more, and likely already have an informed opinion now if someone were to ask, plus of course if the opinion is that this is a prohib, I wouldn't want anyone to post that they have this thing. No tinfoil hat needed.
 
graydog said:
Not trying to be stupid here but if I were you I would let your friend find out this info so that you are not in trouble for giving someone wrong or misleading info. Sometimes itis better to be safe then sorry in these things, even if you are just trying to help a friend.

Graydog
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Explain how someone would "be in trouble" for giving information, misleading or not? Its not a crime to lie(except in court, then again the whole point to a court is to see who can lie the best.), and unless you show intent, there's zero grounds for a lawsuit or similar. I think some people need to turn down the paranoia.

The item in question is not a firearm, firearms dispense a projectile and unless its over 500FPS it doesn't qualify.

TDC
 
TDC said:
Explain how someone would "be in trouble" for giving information, misleading or not? Its not a crime to lie(except in court, then again the whole point to a court is to see who can lie the best.), and unless you show intent, there's zero grounds for a lawsuit or similar. I think some people need to turn down the paranoia.

The item in question is not a firearm, firearms dispense a projectile and unless its over 500FPS it doesn't qualify.

TDC
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Ummmm, not quite. Remington double derringers in .41 rimfire are prohibited if made after 1897(98) and .41 RF is under 500 feet per second.
I agree with turning down the paranoia.
I also agree that the device in question isn't a firearm according to the firearms act. It does however meet the criminal code definition of a firearm and could also be considered a prohibited device/weapon. My advice is it would be fine to own but I wouldn't carry it or get caught in a night club with it.
 
FYI, it is listed in the FRT as a prohib handgun. Take up your arguement with the RCMP. A blank gun also designed to dispense tear gas, probably pellets, hence projectiles.
dB
 
Thanks, daBear. That would be the consummate answer: there is an FRT, it is a prohib. Idiotic, yes. Since it isn't mine, I won't have to argue with the RCMP, though I'm sure there are some out there in the World for sale. I think one would have to make up viable, projectile firing ammunition (a bit hard without one to do it for) then have the "pistol" and ammo shipped to the RCMP, and a few months later, find out if it was all a waste of money or not.

Thanks to all for your opinions! Even the unpopular ones are appreciated.
 
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