PROHIB Replica firearms 500fps or lower

[IM_Lugger]

that Umarex Beretta 92 is perfectly legal I had one for a few years...great gun!. It does look like a spesific make and model of a firearm but it's not a replica because it can cause harm.

as for using one on gophers? wrong gun! With .177 you're looking at 7.5gr pellet at 350-390fps wich is only about 2-2.5 ft-lbs! you'd need to empty a few magazines to kill one of those. get a .22 at 400fps+ and even that is not that powerful if you think about.

 

[notec]

Try buying one from the states and make sure they claim it as an airsoft gun! Be sure to scan the notice the CBSA sends you when they seize it....

They are completely legal to buy in Canada, dont mix up your facts. I wish people would do more research before repeating misinformation. I own several all black airsoft guns all purchased legally in canada. Along with close to 1000 members of the Canadian Airsoft forum. You can also import them from Asia if you want to go that route.

 

[drache]

They are completely legal to buy in Canada, dont mix up your facts. I wish people would do more research before repeating misinformation. I own several all black airsoft guns all purchased legally in canada. Along with close to 1000 members of the Canadian Airsoft forum. You can also import them from Asia if you want to go that route.

I've been a member of Airsoft Canada for close to 5 years and played for about 8 years up until last year so I DO know what I'm talking about. You CANNOT import an airsoft gun across the border unless the law has changed in a year. I've personally had one seized by the CBSA.

The CBSA have classified airsoft as a replica and thus a prohibited import (thus the reason G&G and other companies have come out with "black" airsoft guns with clear receivers to circumvent this law). You can purchase it legally in Canada but you cannot import it yourself. You also can't import metal armalite lower receivers across the border. Thus the reason airsoft is in the "grey" area, they are a prohibited import and yet once they are in the country they are "legal".

I take it you are the notec on ASC that joined in October of last year and have yet to be age verified?

 

[notec]

And where in my post did I say import from america??? You just confirmed my post. Just because a gun is prohibited in the US means nothing about owning one in Canada.

 

[drache]

And where in my post did I say import from america??? You just confirmed my post. Just because a gun is prohibited in the US means nothing about owning one in Canada.

Um... ANY time you import a gun it comes across a BORDER! Where in my last post do I say AMERICA?

Importing airsoft is prohibited but owning them is not. Maybe you should try asking if it's legal over at ASC. You can ONLY buy them from retailers in Canada

I've got a plan, contact Redwolfairsoft.com or WGC and ask them if it's ok to import an airsoft gun in Canada (both are companies from Hong Kong).

Here I'll save you some work, from Redwolfairsoft.com:

Is airsoft legal in Canada / Australia / New Zealand / Germany / Singapore / Malaysia / Indonesia?
For Canada, this continues to be a hotly debated issue but the short answer is pretty much "no". [....] you can only order accessories from our site.

Here's from the ASC FAQ which you obviously never read:

Is airsoft legal to buy or sell?
Legally, no. Airsoft are replicas which are prohibited devices, and noone (business or individual) can strictly speaking buy, sell or transfer in any way airsoft after Dec 1 98. However, for responsible people this law is mostly overlooked and not even well understood - mostly because there are very very few real incidents involving replicas. Because they are fundamentally not dangerous compared to knives or real guns, they are not headline items on law enforcement radar. Nonetheless, it is not legal to sell airsoft, so it is very important to bear in mind that we must always treat these guns with the utmost respect to ensure we maintain the status quo.

Can I import airsoft into Canada?
No, an individual cannot import airsoft into Canada. Not just because airsoft are considered prohibited devices, but because replicas are specifically not permitted for import by the CBSA (customs). If you try to bring airsoft across the border and it is discovered, at the very least you should expect it to be seized, and you could be faced with firearms related charges. Customs isn't perfect and some airsoft does get through by mail or being driven across the border. I personally absolutely recommend against trying this. Not only is it expensive to lose your airsoft, the potential consequences might stick with you your whole life.

So if you want to continue this debate I suggest you start a thread over at ASC and I'll gladly continue it there as it doesn't belong on CGN.

 

[notec]

LOL, I agree with what your posting. My original post was about them being prohibited to own in Canada. I was unaware that they were no longer importing from Asia. As I have know people that have done so. But they might of went routes that were, how to say, Illegal....lol

I do remember reading Redwolf post about the problems importing them. But somehow they make their way here.


But anyway, we are getting a little of the main topic. Thanks for the refresher

 

[mouthpiece]

For a twist. if owned since 1998 you are legal to own but if you transfer an airsoft are you breaking any law?

 

[drache]

For a twist. if owned since 1998 you are legal to own but if you transfer an airsoft are you breaking any law?

Technically yes but also technically no. There is no set law stating what airsoft ACTUALLY is (replica or not) although the CBSA states it as such, the RCMP/CFP do not (on the CFC website it used to call airsoft a replica but not anymore).

So for a person to be charged with selling an airsoft gun, the prosecution would have to first prove that it is a replica. I don't think any want that job since the defense would compare them simply to toys or the same thing as pellet guns. Airsoft stays under the 500fps and 5.7j limit of firearms just like pellet guns.

So far the only people who have been prosecuted for selling airsoft were charged for bringing them in without the proper paperwork (bringing them in as movie props but then turning around and selling to the public). No individual has been charged for selling one as one owner to another.

An airsoft player in BC actually had the CFO for BC visit him and suggest that airsoft should just stay under the radar otherwise it would force the government to finally make up their decisions on airsoft which might turn out badly. All airsoft players I know would gladly accept a ruling that a PAL would be needed to own airsoft if it meant legalizing it.

 

[Infanteer90]

I have been researching this subject lately as I am interested in purchasing an airsoft M4 for some target shooting with my kids. This is what I have found. Replicas are prohibited. A pellet/bb gun that accurately resembles a real firearm is okay because it is capable of causing harm to a person so it's not considered a replica. Most airsoft are considered replicas unless they have a clear body/receiver as there are currently no real firearms made of clear material. Airsoft that accurately resembles a real firearm (ie: all black/metal) are not deemed capable of causing serious harm UNLESS they fire above 407 fps but under 500 fps in which case they are considered the same as a pellet/bb gun. Apparently someone somewhere did some testing and determined that an airsoft bb is harmful above 407 fps. I found this info on the CBSA website. It is currently CBSA policy to prevent the importation of airsoft by individuals (unless they have a clear body?) and if you are caught trying to import one without properly declaring it you can be fined / charged. Whether or not they will allow an all metal airsoft that fires over 407 fps to be imported as an airgun is yet to be determined. It "should" be allowed but to simplify things for the customs agents it appears that they just simply class all airsoft as prohibited. That being said, just this morning I brought a clear body M1911 airsoft pistol back from Arizona with no problems but the custom agent's eyes widened when I said I purchased an airsoft. Once I explained that it has a clear body he said "Clear huh.... okay".

 

[nabiul]

Thats great and all except airsoft bb's range all the way from being 0.12g to the weight of steel 4.5mm bb's.

Also, most fields don't allow guns over 300 fps to be used because of safety reasons.

 

[Infanteer90]

Thats great and all except airsoft bb's range all the way from being 0.12g to the weight of steel 4.5mm bb's.

Also, most fields don't allow guns over 300 fps to be used because of safety reasons.

Exactly, there is no mention of the weight of the bb's used.... not to mention that an average airsoft capable of 360 fps can be upgraded to fire over 407 fps or one that is admitted into the country as an airgun firing over 407 fps can then subsequently be modified to shoot at a lower fps.... what a bloody nightmare. Probably why the CBSA just prevents individuals from importing them to save themselves the headache. Anyway, just sharing the information that I found in my research.

 

[drache]

Also, most fields don't allow guns over 300 fps to be used because of safety reasons.

Everywhere in BC and Alberta that I know if, the max limit is 400-500fps with .20g, actually at one field I know of you cant go LOWER than 400fps. That's one of the largest clubs in BC as well.

Exactly, there is no mention of the weight of the bb's used.... not to mention that an average airsoft capable of 360 fps can be upgraded to fire over 407 fps or one that is admitted into the country as an airgun firing over 407 fps can then subsequently be modified to shoot at a lower fps.... what a bloody nightmare. Probably why the CBSA just prevents individuals from importing them to save themselves the headache. Anyway, just sharing the information that I found in my research.

All "real" airsoft clubs measure speeds by .20g as it's the standard weight. .12g BB's are for SOFTAIR and can shatter inside the barrels and tear the hopup to shreds in AIRSOFT guns. Most players use .20 or .25 with the gas power rifles generally go .30 or aluminum coated .40g.

The M4 that I used to game with was 500fps on the button with a .20g which is the max for 99% of the fields. I could "detune" that speed by simply swapping out the spring cylinder (I could actually do it on the fly while gaming depending on the situation). I generally used .25g BB's due to the accuracy being better (less effect by wind) although the distance was slightly less.

I've seen gas powered airsoft rifles like a friend's M700 that could easily hit 700fps with a .20g BB.

 

[FlyGuy]

Thinking out loud here, while attempting to steer the thread back to the issue of pellet guns vs. replica/prohib device...

In this particular case, we're not talking about importation so we can leave the CBSA out of it for a moment. What we're discussing is the legal transfer of a gun that IS, or IS NOT considered to be a replica firearm, thus also deemed a prohibited device and thus cannot be transferred/sold without lawful excuse. Correct me if I am wrong but it seems to me the tie-in to "replica" stems both from the muzzle velocity being greater than 407 fps but less than 500 fps, and the close physical resemblence of the pellet gun to it's louder and much more deadly counterpart. However, both of these conditions must be met in order to classify the gun as a replica, not one or the other.

Having the muzzle velocity for a lightweight (SIMILAR TO AIRSOFT PROJECTILES) .177 projectile above 407 fps, according to the oft-quoted RCMP ballistics report, will likely result in injury, thus the gun cannot be classified as a "replica" by its very definition of not normally being able to cause injuries. However, exceeding 500 fps will put it into the category of a "firearm", thus requiring PAL/RPAL etc. procedures.

Therefore, to me it seems that the pellet gun operating between 407 and 500 fps with .177 pellets, regardless of accurate physical resemblence to the real fierearm, cannot be deemed a replica by its very definition. Since it is neither a firearm nor a replica, it can be sold (and imported if the CBSA were to get their facts straight). The sweet spot then is between 407 and 500 fps, or whatever the equivalent muzzle energy limits are in Joules.

It is also this "sweet spot" of fps/muzzle energy that airsoft guns could be manufactured against for the very same reasons as the pellet guns. If the manufacturers clearly label these items as "Airguns, 408-499 fps, 0.2g BBs Only" or something like that, then perhaps we'd be in the clear to import them ourselves?? However to clear the way for that particular utopian dream, I would think it would take a number of successful but fairly expensive, up-hill battles requiring exceptionally competent legal representation on our parts, to be waged at the Customs Tribunal and/or Federal Court in order to prove to the CBSA that they have been seizing these items in error. Wishful thinking I suppose...having a Gov't department reverse its long-standing practices because they were actually proven to be wrong all along! Ugh...what was I thinking, they could just go and "fix" the definiton of a replica and we'd be back to square one, but then again so would the pellet gun types! [...sarcasm...]

The thought was nice though while it lasted...


'Fly

 

[drache]

Where can one read this RCMP ballistics report?

 

[FlyGuy]

Where can one read this RCMP ballistics report?

Not sure. You may have to ATIP it from them, or have imported airsoft guns seized and subpoena it as evidence at your Tribunal appeal. However, I've seen elements of it quoted in various, unsuccessful I might add, appeals to Customs Tribunals (case summaries are available via online search) as part of the Crown's justification for classifying a seized gun (ex. airsoft SMG) as a "replica firearm".

If memory serves so don't flame me if I'm wrong, but in order to classify these "toys" as replica firearms, some conditions must be met, most notably...

1. Resemble with precision or near precision the real firearm
   - this they can prove at Tribunal just by physical evidence
   
2. Not itself be classified as a firearm
   - this is where the whole "likely to cause injury", muzzle velocity/energy, and of course this RCMP report gets trotted out as proof the gun is NOT a firearm, thus it can now meet the definition of a "replica firearm"
   
3. Then there's some language about resembling antique firearms but that's usually a moot point regarding almost all airsoft guns.

It's at this point the poor schmuck, being completely blind-sided by this RCMP lab report and the rapid, well-rehearsed 1-2-3 slam-dunk show on the part of the CBSA, looks over and sees the smug faces of the CBSA staff present testifying against him or her, and watches helplessly as the adjudicator rules yet again that CBSA were correct to seize these "prohibited devices". He or she then watches as the guns are promptly whisked away for immediate disposal and the case is closed...another "win" for the Border Services.

The cornerstone of the CBSA's strategy depends upon establishing at Tribunal that the gun is not a firearm, that it cannot normally cause bodily injury, and that it resembles with precision or near precision, the real firearm but not an antique one as they're exempted by definition. If they can do that, they win...and so far they have every time.

If you think about it awhile, it completely boggles the mind but only in Canada can you have a situation where a gun that mimics with incredible precision the outward appearance of a real firearm and that can discharge a projectile with enough energy (as deemed by the RCMP) to likely cause (non-fatal) injury, yet remains perfectly legal to import/sell without restriction because it's neither a replica nor a firearm. Sitting right beside it is another precise imitation of the same real firearm, but this one discharges a projectile with insufficient energy (as deemed by the RCMP) to likely cause (non-fatal) injury, but it is somehow considered more dangerous thus requiring it be classified as a replica firearm and prohibited from importation or transfer??

Umm...WTF??


'Fly

 

[sf]

The key words are 'Staying under the radar' if you want to keep your hobby.

Once upon a time, CAs were legal until dealers started to flood the market with container loads of cheap FNs, G3s Uzi etc. That's when the politicians sh*t their pants and eventually dropped the hammer on CAs. Dewats suffered the same fate at our border shortly after.

Flaunting anything fun but evil looking at politicians and you are bound to end up with similar fate. Liberals are particularly good at being the fun sponge (no ill intent towards USP).

 

[Dr.Lector]

^^^^^^
Well said.

 

[BlaqueJacqueShallaque]

+2

 

[FlyGuy]

The key words are 'Staying under the radar' if you want to keep your hobby.

No argument from me on that either. I was merely trying to illustrate the level of "FUBAR-ness" caused by C-68 w/respect to realistic looking, non-lethal, air-powered guns and still attempt to answer the original poster's question. I agree that maintaining the status quo while (quietly) working towards a more sane solution to these regulatory and policy problems via education, education, and still more education rather than blustering, chest-thumping public outrage seems to be the best course of action at the moment.

Clearly, the laws and regulations are frustratingly flawed and are in dire need of repair, but attracting far too much public attention to this particular niche issue would most likely be counterproductive right now. So much for the "Free" part of, "...The True North, Strong and..."

Regards,
'Fly

 

[marshall]

Now up to 32 posts and not one reply back fromSiglit76
Strange!