Project to buy new pistols for Canadian Forces is once again underway

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Project to buy new pistols for Canadian Forces is once again underway

Project to buy new pistols for Canadian Forces is once again underway
David Pugliese, Ottawa Citizen, Postmedia News (dpugliese@ottawacitizen.com)
Published: 2 hours ago Updated: 56 minutes ago

The project to purchase pistols to replace the Canadian military’s Second World War-era handguns is once again underway and National Defence hopes to have the new weapons by the summer of 2022.
The project had been stalled for years after small arms firms rejected in 2011 the federal government requirement that the guns be built at Colt Canada in Kitchener, ON. In addition, the companies balked at the stipulation they had to turn over their proprietary firearms information to Colt, a firm that some saw as a competitor.
But with small arms companies reluctant to bid on the Canadian pistol project, the federal government has had no choice but to drop those requirements and have an open competition.
A request for bids will now be issued in early 2021, DND spokeswoman Jessica Lamirande confirmed to this newspaper.
She said a “minimum of 9,000” handguns will be purchased. “These are mainly intended for the Canadian Army, and will be issued as required,” she added.
The department hopes to have a contract in place by the summer of 2021, with initial deliveries by the summer of 2022, she added.
The DND declined to discuss the amount of money that taxpayers will spend on the project.
The new handguns will replace the Second World War-era Browning Hi-Power pistols used by the Canadian Forces.
The replacement program for the 9mm Browning Hi-Power pistols has been on the books for years. In the fall of 2011, the DND abruptly cancelled plans for the purchase of 10,000 new pistols. The decision to shut the process down came after international firearms companies balked at the stipulation the firms turn over their confidential technical data to Colt Canada so the guns could be manufactured in Canada.
Colt is the country’s Small Arms Strategic Source and Centre of Excellence.
The DND was told at the time by industry representatives that it didn’t make economic sense to have Colt manufacture the guns in Canada or to have parts shipped to Colt so the guns could be assembled in Canada.
The handgun replacement project has been seen as an example of a highly dysfunctional military procurement system. At one point the DND tried to prevent small arms companies from talking to journalists about the bungled procurement but the department’s decree was largely ignored.
Under the Munitions Supply Program sole source deals have been directed to Colt Canada to maintain a small arms expertise in the country. In late January Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan announced the purchase of more than 3,600 new C6AI FLEX General Purpose Machine Guns from the company. The $96 million order was a follow-on deal to the 2017 contract for 1,148 of the same machine guns. Some spare parts are included along with cleaning kits and carrying slings in the purchase.
Critics pointed out that the cost of each gun worked out to around $27,000, at least twice the amount that other militaries are spending. In February and April two other contracts were directed to Colt to produce a semi-automatic rifle in 7.62 calibre to be used by Canadian Forces sniper teams as an auxiliary weapon.
Lamirande said in 2018 changes were made to improve the Munitions Supply Program. Under those changes, new business was no longer automatically given to members of the supply program.
Instead a thorough analysis is to be done to decide whether it is better to open a project up to competition or sole source the deal to firms in the Munitions Supply Program.
“Factors that are considered include performance, value for money, flexibility, innovation potential, and socio-economic benefits,” Lamirande explained. “We also include considerations for current availability within timeframes and the long term sustainability of the solution.”
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SIG would you take the next overrun of M17 aka Sig 320 and mail them up to Canada, They want 9,000 and a few parts. BTW triple the retail price and send Trudeau $100,000 US to his account in the Bahamas.

Take Care,

Bob
 
Think already posted. Why not just piggy back an order for the SIG 320 with the USA , I think they got them for $250 USD each
 
Sassybee said:
Why not select a better product.
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Using the same product as the Americans has a value all of its own that is typically far more important than any marginal gain by going with something else.

The notion that we need to 'buy the best' is the reason why we are 15 years late replacing pistols in the first place. We need a modern pistol that works. Good enough now is far superior than perfect later.

And there is nothing wrong with the 320.

R005t3r said:
They could upgrade from the HP buy CPO SIGs or DLASK could fulfill the contract. They have SIG patterns. Buy Canadian, EH!
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Buying Canadian for the sake of buying Canadian is the worst reason to do anything. The military needs a reliable pistol. Procurement is meant to meet that need, not the liberals need to buy votes through corporate social welfare.

Having a Canadian company be the distributor, supply chain manager and in country warranty repair centre might make sense, but that is literally what the munitions supply program is for. Any of the big brand reputable manufactures should already have that infrastructure in place anyways, so it should really be a non issue.

If it were me, they would just cut a check to Sig right now and be done with it. They are so behind right now that if they had replaced the pistols when they first needed to, we'd be replacing those replacements by now.

Lastly, 9,000 is not enough pistols by half. And each successive procurement cycle that number seems to be going done. The project management office is consuming all of the money available to buy the pistols themselves.

The fact that they think they will go to tender early next year, have a contract in place by summer and take delivery within 12 months is hilarious. Not going to happen.
 
Cameron SS said:
Using the same product as the Americans has a value all of its own that is typically far more important than any marginal gain by going with something else.

The notion that we need to 'buy the best' is the reason why we are 15 years late replacing pistols in the first place. We need a modern pistol that works. Good enough now is far superior than perfect later.

And there is nothing wrong with the 320.



Buying Canadian for the sake of buying Canadian is the worst reason to do anything. The military needs a reliable pistol. Procurement is meant to meet that need, not the liberals need to buy votes through corporate social welfare.

Having a Canadian company be the distributor, supply chain manager and in country warranty repair centre might make sense, but that is literally what the munitions supply program is for. Any of the big brand reputable manufactures should already have that infrastructure in place anyways, so it should really be a non issue.

If it were me, they would just cut a check to Sig right now and be done with it. They are so behind right now that if they had replaced the pistols when they first needed to, we'd be replacing those replacements by now.

Lastly, 9,000 is not enough pistols by half. And each successive procurement cycle that number seems to be going done. The project management office is consuming all of the money available to buy the pistols themselves.

The fact that they think they will go to tender early next year, have a contract in place by summer and take delivery within 12 months is hilarious. Not going to happen.
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You made a lot of excellent points. Buying Canadian or building in Canada drives the cost way up. One needs only to look at the Western Star LSVW, or the Iltis, as an example of ridiculous cost overruns. If it's supposed to be about getting the most value for the dollar, that's not the way to go about it. If you can get the hardware built overseas for less, then do so if it means we can get more for our money. Have ships built in Poland or South Korea if it means we get them faster and for less money spent. If Canadian yards can't be competitive, then that's their own fault. Let them compete for the maintenance contracts, or let them do the fitting-out. Give contracts to Canadian subcontractors instead, if they are affordable.

I think Sig is a great choice. If it were up to me, I'd copy the Danish purchase and get the X-Carry instead of the M17 / M18 version. Or buy some Gen5 Glock 17 MOS instead. We're lucky to have a wide selection of top-notch duty pistols to choose from and we don't need to reinvent the wheel here. DND just needs to buy a reliable, durable and affordable pistol and be done with it.

Like you, I am highly skeptical this will see deliveries in 2021. Back in 2017, the DND estimated that they wouldn't complete deliveries till 2026. And that's if they had picked a winner back then.
 
lerch641 said:
We could literally go with new production BHP's and still be better off than using the old warhorses we have now.
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But the tooling is worn out and production is ceased. So there are no new production.

And the BHP is outdated, the safety near impossible to use with gloves, no light rail, no night sights, not ambidextrous.

And whatever they choose.. DITCH the stupid magazine safety. I would still have a friend, if the BHP had no mag safety.
 
OkayShooter said:
But the tooling is worn out and production is ceased. So there are no new production.

And the BHP is outdated, the safety near impossible to use with gloves, no light rail, no night sights, not ambidextrous.

And whatever they choose.. DITCH the stupid magazine safety. I would still have a friend, if the BHP had no mag safety.
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^This.

I read the previous General Service Pistol request for proposals. IIRC they were specifically looking for something with a DAO trigger (didn't specify hammer or striker fired), Night sights, 1913 accessory rail, no mag safety, and had to be able to be disassembled without pulling the trigger (which would seem to exclude Glock). Not sure if they've modified the requirements since, though.
 
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