So you don't think I deserve a better chance to protect myself on the next tour. Sorry to hear you think so little of the folks that are put in harms way. Very disrespectful.
Moe
Project to buy new pistols for Canadian Forces is once again underway
- Thread starter CV32
- Start date
So you don't think I deserve a better chance to protect myself on the next tour. Sorry to hear you think so little of the folks that are put in harms way. Very disrespectful.
Moe
Hi Moe,
Nothing personal.
When I stop seeing soldiers throwing their guns in the back of a truck like wood, stop throwing pistols into milk crates to get banged around driven to the range, and stop seeing people scour metal off firearms trying to make them carbon free an hour after shooting I'll change my views.
Obviously you and I have seen these things happen over the time of our career. I don't believe that kind of activity is the norm. At least anymore. I have not seen any BHP's thrown into a milk crate in a very long time. I have not seen anyone scrub metal off weapons but have seen people hopelessly scrub them for hours in the 80's 90's.
I know that in the last 3 units I have been with surely do not support that kind of weapon maintenance and care. I take the time to show my subordinates proper and realistic weapon cleaning and I hope you do too.
It is a new era, new young minds with new young mentality. The new folk are not the robots doing business just because that's the way it always was. The new folks are able to break away from that and use an open mind and make the changes and adaptions that are way overdue. This includes treating a new pistol like it deserves.
Cheers
Moe
To be honest, I think BHPs are being thrown in mill crates and not take carr of because they are pieces of junk that should have been retired before I even joined back in 2003.
I’ve seen privates being issued 226 for deployment and taking care of them like it was their own pistols. Same goes for the issued musket, it tend to be thrown around but C8s are being cared for. I believe that if troops are issued nice kit that works, they will take care of it more than if they are issued old outdated underperforming kit from 2 decades ago.
As for piling guns in the trucks... I’m glad I live in a truckless batallion so I don’t have to witness that anymore. For the inspection ready/carbon free/scraped off guns, we came a long way too but there are still dinosaurs that are above my pay grade that need to be educated about gun cleaning Vs gun machining with a screwdriver... its easier to teach the troops than to try to change the mind of a guy that drank way too much pressure cooker water
Back on topic: Glocks would be great but P320 would work just as well and we will pay way too much whatever gets picked just like everything else.
OkayShooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nova Scotia
I worked CQ and in the vault in the mid to late 2000s. This stuff still happens. This even included taking a knife/cleaning rod to the crown, because someone finds some carbon in the flash hider. Young privates scared to be held back because of some dirt. Taking brass brush to the barrel because some rust. Its NCO and Bin rats, need to lower the standard of what is serviceable clean.
Cameron SS
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ground Zero
Guilty Sparks point is that DND does not take the pistol capability seriously. And that is 100% true. There is no excuse for this, least of all soldiers blaming their obsolete equipment for not maintaining it properly regardless.
I would have thought for certain that the Afghan War would have taught the military to take a side arm more seriously, as most of our allies did. Problem is the pistols went to all the wrong people, and the pointy heads were more concerned with keeping up with the latest holster fashion at Kandahar Airfield then actually knowing how to shoot. Most of those same people who bragged about the convenience of having a pistol, joking that they hadn't seen their long gun in months, were terrified to go the range with it.
Not enough of the guys at the pointy end who had been issued pistols for front line use actually bothered to staff up proper UCRs, and the war ended just in time for the folks at DLR to breath a sigh of relief that they dodged the bullet and could go back to sleep.
People make a lot of noise about Canada's broken procurement system, but in the day that system, like any other, is made up of humans. The story of Canadian procurement in DND is one of apathy, ignorance, and careerism. Nothing resembling broad commitment to get equipment where its needed most. The few people who are committed to delivering the goods are few and far between, and are faced with a wall of bureaucracy more impenetrable than Trudeau's Cabinet confidences.
Its a system designed to fail, probably so that politicians of all tie colours can re-announce the same spending commitments again and again without ever actually having to spend the money.
Milofficer
CGN Regular
- Location
- Vancouver, BC
I've never heard it put like that before, but it sums things up nicely.
I'm sure there are some good, well-meaning people at DLR, but I remember reading their after-action report on troops wearing non-issued load bearing vests outside the wire. I was frankly stunned to read these people waving away criticisms of the tac vest and airily declaring that storing more than 4 mags was silly - besides, your small pack is modular, so just store any other magazines in there!
I've been searching for the 2012 General Service Pistol requirements on MERX but it looks like it's been deleted. At least from what I remember reading from it, it seemed like the people who were drawing it up knew what features to look for in a modern service handgun, and they were looking for proven designs. One of the selection criteria was that an eligible pistol had to be in service with a NATO member for at least 2 years. I don't know if that's going to be a requirement going forward, but it would suggest that they were looking for established designs, and there are plenty to choose from.
I did manage to track down one of my old posts where I listed the selection criteria from 2012. This is what the CF was looking for at the time:
1. A full size service pistol, with DAO Trigger
2. Has to be in current service with a NATO country + 2yrs prior
3. 9mm
4. Magazine has to be larger than 13rds. Magazines greater than 15rds are preferred.
5. Unloaded weight + empty magazine must be < 950g
6. Barrel must be 102mm or longer
7. Trigger pull must be between 4-8 lbs
8. Ambidextrous magazine release
9. Must not need to pull the trigger to disassemble
10. No magazine safety
11. No safety devices to manipulate
12. Must have an M 1913 accessory rail
13. Trigger pull weight must be consistent every shot.
14. Must have 3-dot tritium night sights
15. Magazines must drop free
The ambi magazine release was an interesting criteria. It didn't specify if the magazine release could be swappable or if it HAD to be completely ambi. On the face of it, an ambi mag release would seem to exclude quite a few possible choices.
r34skyline
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
That sounds like a Hk SFP9... that would make me very happy.
Milofficer
CGN Regular
- Location
- Vancouver, BC
I hope they're flexible on that particular point, or willing to accept a swappable mag catch, because that would significantly open up the playing field.
Either way, this was a list of features requested back in 2012 on MERX, so until we see an updated one, it's anyone's guess if the requirements have changed or not. But my assumption is that they probably won't have changed by much at all.
Cameron SS
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ground Zero
If it hasn't changed, then what has the procurement team been doing for the last 8 years.... other than eating a lot of groceries.
Cameron SS
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ground Zero
That was intentional. Its also an additional safety measure intended to reduce unintended discharge.
OkayShooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nova Scotia
That could be solved by just the removal of the magazine safety. I bet the NDs would drop hard.
As a lefty that has shot and competed in and out of the CAF I have to say this is a stupid requirement. Switchable and ambi mag releases are a solution looking for a problem. Whether the Brownings, Sigs or and commercial pistol I use my trigger finger to release the mag. No slower and the muscle memory allows me to use any pistol out there.
also muscle memory might help to take the mag out before dis-assembly.
also checking the loading port I mean really looking into it for a loaded round would absolutely prevent accidental discharges when cleaning or repair
why can’t the soldiers learn this, they are somewhat bright and capable, are they not
not a glock fanboy just want the major manufacturers to be allowed to compete if they have a pretty good product
OkayShooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nova Scotia
Well they do teach you the same thing you get taught in the firearm course. But they pound it into you much more than the firearm course. But when you are cleaning a gun that has a magazine disconnect, it requires you to take a safe gun, not safe. Because not everybody has long enough fingers to trip the disco on the BHP. Muscle memory and being tired, is also kind of what got a friend shot and killed overseas. What do you do after inserting a mag? You rack the slide. Why I'm against magazine disconnects.
Also I was nearly shot, because someone was clearing a gun, inserted a mag and shot the table that I was standing at.
Unfortunately it's the Brass coming down with these rules, or requirements.
