Propane and Butane

sealhunter

sealhunter

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Went out for a coyote hunt last weekend and being the Newfoundlander I am, I of course have to "boil up", or at least boil the kettle for a cup of tea.

I was back at the truck with my huntin buddy and my butane lighter would not light. I had a spare one as well and that would not light. I could hear the butane, but no flame woild light. I then proceeded to break out the matches and lit my single burner propane stove. What a disappointment. For a fella with a frozen goatee and numb fingers, dying for a hot cup of tea. I was out of luck. It took at least 12 - 15 minutes just to get the water hot, not even boiled.

It was so cold outside, I settled for that and had a cup of warm tea.

Tonight I tried something, just cause it is so damn cold again.
Sure enough, my butane lighters won't light outside once they've been out there for more than a hour.

But.... the big test was my stove. I have an MSR dragonfly that is always in my pack for emergency ( it was in my pack last weekend as well, but it waas no emergency, so Didn't light it)
I lit it tonight and boiled my kettle bubbling out the top in just under 5 minutes. This stove is absolutely amazing and I am reassured to know it performs in -45 wind chill :)
 
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I had the same problem a couple of times with disposable lighters. Now I carry one of those little mini-torches (butane) that go on sale at C.T. every once in a while. Easy to use, always light no matter what, and allow more precise application of the jet of flame without burning your frozen fingers. The only problem is that some of them leak (I've got 4 or 5) so you should check the fluid level frequently. They're clear so it's easy to see.

John
 
i just keep a bic lighter in an inside pocket...but yeah i know what you mean by they won't lite when cold. but always carry matches too (sounds like you already do).
 
i wont fault you on wanting a warm cup of tea... but man your nuts out hunting yotes in -45 weather lol.

my twig and giggle berries would be frozen off. anything under -20 and i look like nanuk of the north with heavy snow pants, big jacket with layers of sweaters and vests under it, and my thick snowmobile gloves and heavy socks with my snow boots. i gain about 50lbs lol
 
Well as for hunting in the -45 wind chill. I decided that this weekend I would not go. -40's again and 40- 60k wind.

Last weekend a wore my survival suit and a fur hat with flip downs. I had a pair of gloves (deerskin and synthetic), Columbia boots for -40 rating, battery socks and under armour.

The survival suit as always was amazing. My legs and core were warm as toast. I have no worries in the cold with it.

The boots left a little to be desired, but weren't bad if you moved around moderately.

The gloves were great if you were moving a bit, but at these temps you need Mitts not gloves (lesson learned)

Face and head were fine.

I almost always put the kettle on in the woods and have a little "boil up".

Back home, smoked kippers and smoked herring were the choice for the fire, and whatever other grub was on the go.

As for the flame business. My torch lighter was the spare and it too wouldn't light.

From now on, I'll be using the MSR stove until it warms up.

My kettle is a prefab aluminum welded kettle. Does anyone have one?
They're famous in Newfoundland and have a very very fast boil time.
I'd like to know eher I could buy one out here. The one I have is a 5 cup and I'd rather a 3 cup.
 
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According to my thermo book, Butane turns to liquid at -0.5C and Propane -42.1C, so if it will not vaporize out of the tank (lighter or propane tank) then you cannot get the proper fuel/air mix to ignite. Ever wonder why your propane tanks seems to last a lot longer in the summer, there is something to do with the pressure and temperature of the fuel in the winter that keeps it a liquid in the tank rather than a gas in your burner. There are types of stoves that are made for the winter, and matches are a good backup.

Wow, this $200 text book came in handy.
 
Propane and Butane are always liquid in their storage container, no matter how big or small, unless there is too little left in the tank to allow any to remain a liquid (empty tank). It's their Boiling temperature that makes the issue in cold weather. What Fox posted is basically correct. It isn't the fact that they turn to liquid at the temperatures stated, it's that they will not "boil" [produce any vapor pressure] below the temperatures listed. This is an illustration. At temperatures below -.5ºC (butane) or below -42.1ºC (propane) you could carry an open pail of this stuff and it would remain a liquid in the pail rather than boil away. If the respective temperatures rise above the stated thresholds, the liquid would quickly change to a vapor and disappear. Thus, in the case of a butane lighter that is in very cold surroundings, there is no vapor presure, thus no flow of butane to ignite until the temperature of the device (and its contents) rise above -.5ºC. In a propane powered vehicle outside at -45ºC, there is zero vapor pressure in the tank, thus you have a "no start" condition. At +44ºC, the vapor pressure in that same tank is about 200psi. Whether you get vapor or liquid at your chosen end use, simply depends on whether the in-tank pickup is above or below the liquid level in the tank, which, incidentally, should never be greater than 80% of the tank's capacity. Regards, Eagleye
 
The winter stove I have is the MSR dragonfly and it works great.

Thanks for the propane info. When I got the MSR I had all this info on the propane problems in cold temps and the like. I however had never experienced it til last weekend.

Propane is now put away til summer!
 
What about wood?????;)
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Ahhhh ! wood.

I haven't seen any since I moved to Southern Saskatchewan!:)

I much prefer to have a little fire, and grew up that way, but it seems out here there are a lot more open fire bans in many places and some places (like here ib south sask) i don't see much brush.
 
the propane lit, but was sluggish . The butane wouldn't light at all. If the windchill, were actual temperature, the propane would not even have burned either. (as I said, I never really exprienced the troubles before)

bye bye propane.
 
Thermos are fine, but I guess boiling a cup a tea and bit of grub has always been my routine. A bit of a tradition if you will.

on the thermos though, dies anyone know a really good one?

I had an old grey/black Stanley one that was amazing, but somehow lost it last year
I can't seem to find the same thermos anywhere.
 
A well pre-heated thermos should last all day, easy. I've had coffee from mine that is well over 18hrs old, and still warm.
 
I lost a thermos in May while camping. When getting my hunting gear together
that September I found it again. I knew it would stink, but when ahead and opened it. To my surprise, the coffee was still steaming hot, and was still quite good, didn't taste off or old at all.

That was a good thermos.
 
"...a propane powered vehicle outside at -45ºC..." Doesn't have to be that cold. The CF converted a bunch of IH stake trucks to propane(a week after a bunch of us TO CIL Officers got them on our 404's), long ago. Of course, come winter they wouldn't start if left outside over night. The CF's recommended solution was to build a fire under the fuel tank.
Naptha stoves won't start in extreme cold either. It actually starts to evapourate. Don't ask me at what temperature though. It was -40(the two scales are equal at that temp) the one time I was there to try it. Playing golf with tomatoes and pick axe handles is fun though.
"...The boots left a..." CF issue mukluks. No good in slush, but they're great in extreme cold.
 
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