Proper technique of rapid fire

Rudi

Rudi

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I think this thread should go here, as perhaps IPSC/IDPA shooters could answer this easily with authority.
So I'm a newbie.
Shooting is good, but shooting fast is even better. :)
If I do something, I want to do it right, that's why I would like to ask for help in this matter.
I have a Baby Eagle 9mm. With that the following sequence looks OK: aim, pull the trigger, hold the trigger and let it fly while it recoils, acquire the target again, release the trigger to reset and pull it immediately. Repead the same steps until the slide locks back. :)
I tried the same with a 1911 Springfield but I felt it weird. Perhaps just because that was the first time I shot a 1911, perhaps because it requires different technique.
So how to rapidfire properly?
 
In order to shoot fast....

You should shoot ssssllloooowww first.

Learn the proper way to shoot, practice, shoot and start from last place. Speed comes as a result of consistency.

You cant shoot fast enough to make up for a miss.

Time for the rest to chime in !
 
Well it seems to me that if you want to shoot accurately and quickly you should probably look at reviewing your sequence. After you press off a shot, get the trigger reset for the next shot during the recoil stage, then you are ready to press again as soon as the sights are aligned.
 
ON close targets 3-7y I would say a lot of shooters get one sight picture (or two acceptable sight pictures) and two presses on the trigger, or what is called a "hammer", although timing also has something to do with it. On farther targets this does not work well. It is something I have to work on as well. Work on distance (20-25y) with your splits starting off slow and getting a perfect sight picture, try to follow the front sight. I good grip will allow the front sight to come up and back down into the area between your rear sights, allowing a clean follow thru with your trigger finger, with out disrupting the sight picture. I am relatively new, but seems to be working for me.

ANother thing you can try is setting up two targets at 3-5y, and fire two rounds on one and than transition to the other target with two follow up shots as quickly as you can. I guess another excercise is called the, "Bill-Drill", in reference to a well known revolver shooter named Bill Jordan. You basically fire 6 rounds at one target as fast as you can, with the goal of getting all "A"'s. Start close, than move progressively to farther targets. Although it is a good excercise to cure things like trigger freeze and speed up your splits, it can be VERY expensive as you go thru a lot of ammo!!!
 
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Thanks guys! That's what I wanted to hear not a reprimand that I should shoot slow. If I shoot slow with the wrong technique, perhaps it will work, but as I start shooting faster that problem would be magnified. So shooting slow is not a good starting point. Shooting slow with proper technique is. So it seems I will have to practice releasing the trigger during recoil not after that.
 
there are two schools of thought on this. I've always been taught to do the reset after you have your sights lined back up, as you can't shoot till then anyhow, and you are less prone to jerk the trigger that way, just an "out" and "in" motion. And it works fine for me, I can hold down .17's on close targets with my Beretta without any difficulty, though I really only aim for .20 and .25's at distance. Maybe going as high as .3 for targets past 20 yds or small steel.
But having taken the Todd Jarret course, he advocates slapping the trigger, which with a single action 1911 works great, but with a pivoting DA/SA trigger I am still not convinced.
Perhaps once a person has mastered proper trigger stroke control by using the reset drill I talked about first, a person can then learn to slap with control, but starting off that way? Not sure if that's a good idea.
The big problem with releasing the trigger during the recoil cycle is that people will rush it and as a result be thinking about it when they are pulling the trigger (you know the whole, "as soon as I pull it I'll release it") which will absolutely cause them to move the gun before the bullet has left the barrel.
I do believe that Todd didn't advocate taking the finger off the trigger during the recoil cycle, but that you kept the trigger pressed until you were coming back on target, then you released fully and slapped it again, instead of just riding it to the "click" and pulling again.
 
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Thanks Slavex, that was a good post. It explains why I felt strange with the 1911.
So basically the "trigger reset after aligning the sights" method works better with the pivoting da/sa trigger, and the "slapping" method works better with the 1911 trigger.
I will try both as soon as I get the registration for my Springfield. (Now I have only the da/sa Baby Eagle.)
 
There's lots of really good information on technique out there...

Some choices are Matt Burkett's material (fairly detailed technical approach, step by step.) Brian Enos' material (some technical detail but more about mental state). And Steve Anderson (really good dry fire exercises.)

All can be found on the web, especially via Brian Enos' website. Also all have books out which you can buy for more insight. Finally check out the Brian Enos forums for more IPSC online stuff than you can imagine.
 
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Point the gun in the general direction of the target, close you eyes, and pull the tigger as fast as you can, until you need to reload....

But really, as others have said, you start off slow and work on acuracy first. The best thing you can do, IMHO is dry training with snap caps and target around the house... I'd say do it in the back yard, but you might get the people next door a little excited...
 
I think rapid fire can only be done with a Glock w/gangbanger sights and the pistol tilted sideways ;) . If you can't hit #### it won't matter 'cause it'll still look cool :D .
 
I don't see the reason why you wouldn't be able to hit the target if the gun is tilted. Three dots in a vertical line instead of a horizontal, and a little compensation for the ballistics. Isn't that easy?? (I haven't tried it yet, perhaps thursday morning I can get to the range and I can try.)
Otherwise I asked the question about rapid fire because the speed magnifies the mistakes. Any monkey can hit a target in slow fire mode, so it wouldn't really yield any useful advice if I asked how to slowfire. And I wouldn't even get any attention with that question. The rapidfire brought out the expert from you guys, and I got some good advice/references.
 
I don't have much to add to the techniques already offered, but would like to add that you have to find the speed that fits you. I have a couple of different handguns and find that I have to adjust my shooting speed to the gun. I started shooting IPSC with a Taurus PT-99 which is a 9mm. I now use a CZ Tactical Sport in .40. The triggeres are VERY different as far as weight and travel, as well as the recoil being more of a handful now. These differences in the gun make a for a difference in the speed that I shoot them.

I have found that a timer is a great training tool. Sometimes a group of targets maybe shot at a rate that "feels" slow but will be faster than a second pass which you race through as fast as you can. Check shot to shot times and target to target times on each pass, you may be surprised. A couple of hundreds of a second added up over a full mag will add up to a noticable difference.

One last note, don't forget to push youself to go faster. It is easy to find a comfortable speed and get stuck there. That's why I like IPSC so much, there always seems to be someone faster that I try to beat. If you want to be the best,(or close to the best), you must keep improving, because they are. Hope my 2 cents helps.
 
Rudi said:
Otherwise I asked the question about rapid fire because the speed magnifies the mistakes. Any monkey can hit a target in slow fire mode, so it wouldn't really yield any useful advice if I asked how to slowfire.
Click to expand...

I'd have to take some exception to this. Slow fire is excellent training for rapid fire because it gives you time to make sure you're doing things right. The difference is that in rapid fire you might accept a 4" group at 25 yards and in slow fire you might only accept a 2" group. In other words to be sure you're doing things right you just have to require better results at slow fire.

FWIW there are MANY people who can't consistently shoot 2" groups at 25 yards with a pistol no matter HOW slowly they shoot.

Like any sport that requires speed, the key to learning is to start at low speed and gradually pick the speed up, keeping everything as smooth as possible. Watching carefully for mistakes and correcting them immediately before increasing the speed another little bit.

As you become more experienced and comfortable at a given speed you'll find you feel less rushed and have more apparent time to observe your actions and correct if necessary. If you feel rushed you're shooting outside your skill level and will be making mistakes.

Lots of speed training is necessary to shoot fast, but so is lots of slow training to help instill correct behaviour at speeds low enough that they can be observed and corrected if necessary.

Sideways means the sights are now pointing the pistol more to one side (depends on which way you've tilted the gun) rather than correcting for ballistic drop. So the point if impact won't match the point of aim. At very close distances this doesn't matter because you can get away with just "pointing" the gun. At longer distances the sights throw the shot off farther and farther as the distance increases, and the drop increases too. Don't do this until you have a lot of trigger time and unless you absolutely have to, to get a shot on target. Usually its the sign of someone who wants to look cool but knows nothing about shooting except what they learned in gangsta' rap music videos.
 
Last time I put an A4 (Letter) paper on the cardboard and tried to shoot it from 25 yards as carefully as I could. I found only 3 holes on it after the whole mag. You can call it shame, for me it is just inspiration. :)
So the technique of rapidfire is the same I should practice fire slowly.
But I'm curious about the numbers you wrote. For me it look unimaginable that anybody is able to shoot consinstently 4 inches groups on 25 yards.
Can you do this with a factory handgun/factory ammo without being a superman???? (I hardly see anybody at the range, most of the time I shoot alone, or with people who seems to be happy just to hit the backstop.)
I think I will need to find company. :)
 
I'm no shooting superman, but...

I can routinely shoot 4" groups with my .40 STI (any ammo) at 25 yards and 2" groups with a .22 target pistol (with cheap bulk back Federal ammo). This is slow fire.

Somewhat faster fire, 10 rounds in 10 seconds, all rounds are easily on an A4 sheet of paper. Both .22 and .40. Most of the time they're under a 6" group size.

IPSC speed is around .2-.25 seconds between shots.

This is why technique is important. There is NO way you can hit a 5" target at 25 yards at that speed until you can do it 100% of the time, SLOWLY. Where you have time to understand what you are doing and what needs to be done to correct errors. Plus you need the time to see what you are doing. If you can't do it with 10-15 seconds between shots then you are guaranteed to be unable to do it with only 1/5 of a second.

Learn to shoot properly before trying to do it fast. Otherwise you're just blowing ammo and wearing out your gun.

Its not that hard to improve if you have someone who knows whats happening to help you. My mother has only been shooting for a couple years and isn't happy unless she has a 2-3" group at 25 yards. This is two things, she shoots about 1000 rounds of .22 a month, and she isn't in a hurry to be "fast" or "cool".

Its really worth getting a .22 to help technique and keep the costs low. 1000 rounds is about $30, instead of $200 for the same amount of 9mm. Thats almost 10 times as much practice for the same money.
 
Why not practice with a .22? It's all about trigger control and sight alignment. All the recoil and muzzle flip comes after the important stuff. The rest is just recovery.
 
I'm sorry Rudi if you took offense at my post I was just kidding around. Shooting the 22 will allow you to improve because there is no kick, noise or flash. Ideally you should have a 22 upper for the pistol you're firing as this will allow you to practice trigger pull and sight alignment. You will also be able to improve on speed because the lack of recoil will allow you to regain sight picture faster making you feel more comfortable to pop the second round off quickly. You will improve familiarity with your firearm and most things will begin to be automatic compared to shooting two different types of firearms.
 
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