Proper way of .303 clips?

The specification for the Mark VII Ball cartridge was very precise; the bullet had to be held in place with a 3-pronged "stab crimp" and the resulting cartridge had to resist 60 pounds f force on the bullet point without the bullet moving. The reason for this was better feeding in rifles and, especially, in the Vickers MG which, being a Maxim type, cammed the round backwards in the Feed Block by sliding it past a rounded cam plate; the Gib of the Lock then picked up the round, extracted it from the Belt, chambered it, extracted it from the Barrel, inserted it into the Ejection Tube and left it to be pushed out by the next round. The Bullet of the Mark VII Ball round was a 3-piece 174-grain effort with a Jacket, Filler Plug in the nose weighing 3 grains which could be Aluminum, Fibre or Paper Wadded, with the bulk of the Core behind that. This bullet was marvellously stable at long ranges and was a very accurate bullet. It was also impact-unstable, gaining the Army back some of what they had lost when their Dum Dum Specials were outlawed by the Hague Convention.

I note that at least TWO of your rounds do NOT have stab crimps on the bullets. This means that they are not Ball ammunition but rather some sort of Specials. The precise type will be marked on the base of the Cartridge: B for Incendiary, W for AP, G for Tracer, P for very early AP, and others. There were 5 types of Tracer, 6 of Incendiary, 2 of AP and so forth. The type is always marked: WII indicates Armour-Piercing Mark II, for example. a C means that the round is loaded with Cordite, a Z that it is loaded with an extruded powder such as we use now. There also will be Factory markings and the Dates that each round was made.

I don't know how many different .303 cartridges there really are. I have over 200 here and I am not even properly started yet. Peter Labbett, the great British authority on ammunition, had more than 1800 .303s in his personal collection. When he wrote the definitive textbook on .303 development, he used his own collection and that of Mr. Bert Woodend (who had 3600 different .303s) as reference material.

Looking at your photos, I would say that you have a pretty decent start on a .303 collection!

Hope this helps.
 
If someone has ground the tip of the bullets off, in order to improvise an expanding bullet, it would be best not to fire them. There is a chance the jacket will be left in the bore, the core being suirted out; next shot could produce a bulged or burst barrel.
Mk. VII bullets usually are marked on their bases, so mfr. could be identified.
 
tiriaq said:
If someone has ground the tip of the bullets off, in order to improvise an expanding bullet, it would be best not to fire them. There is a chance the jacket will be left in the bore, the core being suirted out; next shot could produce a bulged or burst barrel.
Mk. VII bullets usually are marked on their bases, so mfr. could be identified.
Click to expand...

Well THAT really sux, but not as much as a burst barrel (or as someone else mentioned here somewhere, being left with a face even a mother couldn't love...) would suck. Well, I guess I put those aside until I start reloading... :,(

I'll check those without the crimps in the next day or two, and let you know what the head stamps are on them, too! This is like a treasure- hunt! :D
 
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The stab crimps were deleted on .303" Mk7 ball c1945 when the specs were changed to a mouth crimp.
 
Thanks for the intel Mr. Green. I see how important the slightest characteristics of this milsurp bootie, makes it soooo much more than simply 'old ammo'!

I figured, I'd get a few period/related bits and pieces to make a "complete" kit for my smle - just because it would be cool, but a "complete" collection really holds a lot of unobtainium. LOL! Woo-hoo, I've stumbled down a really cool rabbit hole!
 
The new 1945 specification for the Ball cartridge carried with it a change of name, just to keep things straight.

The new cartridge was named officially the "Cartridge, Small Arms, calibre .303", Ball Mark VIIg". This information was printed on the cardboard cartons in which the ammunition was packed and on the wooden crates in which it was transported in bulk.

It was NOT marked on the Cartridges themselves.

Likely this was to avoid confusion with the (also non-stab-crimped) Tracer series, which had been marked on the Head of the Cartridge as "VIIG" up until the 1927 renaming, after which Tracers had been marked on the base as "GII", "GIII", "GIV" or whatever was required.

The ammunition in the OP appears all to be of Great War vintage or close to it in time period, which is why I suggested that the non-crimped items could be Specials of some sort.

We will all find out for sure when the Headstamps are posted!

The OP is 100% correct: it IS just like a treasure-hunt!
 
smellie said:
The new 1945 specification for the Ball cartridge carried with it a change of name, just to keep things straight.

The new cartridge was named officially the "Cartridge, Small Arms, calibre .303", Ball Mark VIIg". This information was printed on the cardboard cartons in which the ammunition was packed and on the wooden crates in which it was transported in bulk.

It was NOT marked on the Cartridges themselves.

Likely this was to avoid confusion with the (also non-stab-crimped) Tracer series, which had been marked on the Head of the Cartridge as "VIIG" up until the 1927 renaming, after which Tracers had been marked on the base as "GII", "GIII", "GIV" or whatever was required.

The ammunition in the OP appears all to be of Great War vintage or close to it in time period, which is why I suggested that the non-crimped items could be Specials of some sort.

We will all find out for sure when the Headstamps are posted!

The OP is 100% correct: it IS just like a treasure-hunt!
Click to expand...

Can you show a picture of a packet label with this designation as I must confess to being very suspicious of that nomenclature? I know it is pedantic but British/Commonwealth smallarms ammunition nomenclature has never included the word "calibre" and by 1945 the Mark number had changed to Indo-Arabic characters so would be "7" not "VII".

You discussed in the previous post the numbers of different .303 rounds. In my .303 headstamp book I list 135 different Marks of .303 including Local Pattern and Wartime expedient rounds. I don't really collect different dates but I have about 1,000 .303 rounds in the collection, but I am still looking for some of the rarer ones. I knew both Peter Labbett and Herb Woodend for over forty years and in fact I inherited Peter's library and data archive when he died.

I will also be interested to see what those two uncrimped rounds turn out to be, but I suspect they will be Canadian G Mark I given the cupro-nickel envelopes. The changeover to neck crimping actually took place about the end of 1943 and it necessitated a change in the position of the cannelure to a higher position level with the top of the case.

Regards
Tonye
 
Hey guys, I tried loading my rounds into the clip like #2. When I load the mag, the last round always ends up with the rim behind the fourth round resulting in a jam. Now when I load it like #3, it works but like was posted earlier, rounds tend to come off the clip. How do I load it properly so that round#5 rim does not end up behind round#4's rim? I tried and 4 of 5 attempts ended this way.
 
Hey guys, I started a new thread for the ammo ident stuff, entitled "coolio mulsurp ammo" where I've posted some additional pics for identification fun and assistance! Apologies to the OP here for hijacking this thread, I didn't realize it was going that way until TonyE brought it back. Peace!
 
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