Proposed Black powder storage regs

10x

10x

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These are proposed limits on what you can store in your home.
This is not a safety issue - this is an attempt to limit folks from making pipe bombs. Read the last line..

DRAFT PROPOSAL
NRCan Explosives Regulatory Division Storage Limits for Personal Use (no licence)

Propellants
Current Proposed Rationale Stakeholder
Position
Single-dwelling Unit 10 kg 25 kg of smokeless powder

2 kg of black powder (+ 300 rounds) Some require several different types of powder
BP is considerably more powerful Changes requested by stakeholders
Agree to BP restrictions

Multi-dwelling Unit 10 kg 5 kg of smokeless powder or 20 kg
of smokeless powder in containers
of 1 kg or less
1 kg of black powder in bulk and
2 kg total in cartouches and bulk Neighbours have not agreed to assume risk Agree with differentiation

In separate store (unlicensed) 75 kg with
separation distances 25 kg
No separation distance Separate (outdoor) storage not much utilized Agree
Percussion Caps
Single-dwelling Unit Reasonable* Unlimited in original packaging “Reasonable” not acceptable Agree
Multi-dwelling Unit Reasonable* Unlimited in original packaging “Reasonable” not acceptable Agree
Small Arms Ammunition
Dwelling or Separate Store Reasonable*
150 kg Net Explosives Quantity
i.e., propellant in cartridges) “Reasonable” not acceptable Agree quantity adequate
Unlicensed Storage: International Comparisons UK: 5 kg SP, 10 kg BP, 15 kg percussion caps plus ammunition
Queensland: No unlicensed storage. With licence: 15 kg SP/BP, or 30 kg on a property >2 hectares, no limit on ammo
S Australia: 3 kg SP, 5000 percussion caps, 5000 rounds ammo, must be in detached store. BP requires licence
* This term is not acceptable in modern regulatory drafting practice

Storage Limits for Sale (no licence)

Current Maximum* Proposed* Rationale Stakeholder
Position
Small Arms Ammunition 225 kg Net Explosives Quantity ** 225 kg Net Explosives Quantity ** Agree
Propellant 12 kg propellant 12 kg, enrol on sellers’ list*** Security precaution Agree this is reasonable
Percussion Caps 10 000 caps Unlimited in original packaging Security Agree
* More can be stored with a licence.
** Equivalent to 2.8 million .22 calibre cartridges, 46,000 Winchester Magnum 300 cartridges, or 100,000 12-gauge cartridges.

*** Propellant powders are found about 15 times more often in improvised explosives devices (IEDs) than commercial explosives whose sale requires a licence
 
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Shelldrake said:
2 KG of blackpowder seems pretty small. That may equate to about 1 can each of 4f, 3f, and 2 f,, with another can as spare.
Click to expand...

Depending on what you are shooting that just may enough for a family to shoot a weekend of BPRC silhouette without practice the week before...
 
Those appear to be meeting notes from Australia and not from Canada --- is that correct? The amount of black powder seems awfully small at least in terms of local usage by muzzle loading shooters. Also the total weight of loaded ammunition seems quite small and seems to contradict earlier notes on the numbers of cartridges

cheers mooncoon
 
mooncoon said:
Those appear to be meeting notes from Australia and not from Canada --- is that correct? The amount of black powder seems awfully small at least in terms of local usage by muzzle loading shooters. Also the total weight of loaded ammunition seems quite small and seems to contradict earlier notes on the numbers of cartridges

cheers mooncoon
Click to expand...


Doesn't seem to be Australia...

"DRAFT PROPOSAL
NRCan Explosives Regulatory Division Storage Limits for Personal Use (no licence)"

http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&source=...meta=&aq=0sx&oq=NR+Can+Ex&fp=f616e92003ac2179
 
I see what confused me; comparisons with other countries. I still think the amount of black powder is unreasonably small and don't agree with the rationale that black powder is considerably more powerful than smokeless

cheers mooncoon
 
read the bottom line of the document.
The reason for the regulations is because of improvised explosive devices being made from gunpowder.
The way the regulations are set up it WILL be presented as a public safety issue rather than to prevent illicit manufacture of pipe bombs.
Too bad there is already a portion of the explosives act that deals with the illicit manufacture of explosive devices that makes that reason for limiting regulations redundant.
 
dinsdale said:
Source the info.


Only thing I found that remotely matches that has a date of 2003.

Proposed in 2003 means something completely different than proposed in 2009.
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This was emailed to an individual by a "Reliable source".
We can NOT afford to NOT prepare a response to it.
Particularly those of us who purchase 25 lb of black powder at time because of the economics of shipping makes the purchase of smaller amounts simply too expensive per shot fired.
TO DATE there has been no public safety issue or concern with black or smokeless powder. It is not nearly as dangerous as camp stove fuel, propane, butane, or gasoline.
Nor have there been any issues regarding fire fighter injuries due to gunpowder.
 
10x said:
This was emailed to an individual by a "Reliable source".
We can NOT afford to NOT prepare a response to it.
Particularly those of us who purchase 25 lb of black powder at time because of the economics of shipping makes the purchase of smaller amounts simply too expensive per shot fired.
TO DATE there has been no public safety issue or concern with black or smokeless powder. It is not nearly as dangerous as camp stove fuel, propane, butane, or gasoline.
Nor have there been any issues regarding fire fighter injuries due to gunpowder.
Click to expand...

Send it to CSSA and NFA.
 
Yayyyyyyyy for internation harmonization.

Yay for the UN

Yay for answers to questions never asked

yay to oppression.

I know the NFA has met with NRCAN. We are sliding fast with the explosive regs. If you think ammo is tough to get now, just wait, if these guys get their way, it will be very bad.
 
I think that new regs _could_ be a good thing. I think these need some tweaking, and we need to look closer than "the table" to make sure that there is nothing "sneaking in" (like the ban on (unspecified) "surplus reloading components" that was proposed in the last round of regulation proposals).

As a side note....
Isn't it interesting how this hits us just after the C-391 thing?
Maybe someone will propose that because "our friends" got C-391 passed, we should just sit-down and shut-up for the imposition of these new regs?
(I sure hope that doesn't happen because C-391 is still a __LONG__ way from becoming law)
 
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Splatter said:
I think that new regs _could_ be a good thing. I think these need some tweaking, and we need to look closer than "the table" to make sure that there is nothing "sneaking in" (like the ban on (unspecified) "surplus reloading components" that was proposed in the last round of regulation proposals).

As a side note....
Isn't it interesting how this hits us just after the C-301 thing?
Maybe someone will propose that because "our friends" got C-301 passed, we should just sit-down and shut-up for the imposition of these new regs?
(I sure hope that doesn't happen because C-301 is still a __LONG__ way from becoming law)
Click to expand...

The restriction of black powder to 2 kg and 300 loaded rounds is just a little unreasonable considering the ability of folks in remote areas to get black powder. Hazmat fees make small volume B.P. shipping extremely expensive. It costs the same to ship two pounds as it does 100 pounds.
2Kg for personal use is unreasonable if two or more people in a home shoot BPCR....
 
Splatter said:
I think that new regs _could_ be a good thing. I think these need some tweaking, and we need to look closer than "the table" to make sure that there is nothing "sneaking in" (like the ban on (unspecified) "surplus reloading components" that was proposed in the last round of regulation proposals).

As a side note....
Isn't it interesting how this hits us just after the C-301 thing?
Maybe someone will propose that because "our friends" got C-301 passed, we should just sit-down and shut-up for the imposition of these new regs?
(I sure hope that doesn't happen because C-301 is still a __LONG__ way from becoming law)
Click to expand...




C-301 died a miserable death a long time ago.


C-391 is what you're talking about.
 
When was the last time you heard of a pipe bomb exploding in Canada? When have you heard of an accident with powder in Canada? Why do we need such legislation? 2kg is about 4 pounds of BP which is WAYYY too small a limit. NRcan is a bunch of busybodies that know nothing about shooting and reloading... The guy in charge (the last time I had dealings with them) used to work for a major explosives manufacturer so he was very good with commercial high explosives but very lacking in special effects, pyrotechnics and ammunitions... I can tell you IEDs were far outside their area of expertise!!
 
150 kg of ammo restriction? if i read correct i knew one day that the gov't would try to quantify how much ammo your allowed. are we going to now have police charge us for too much ammo?
 
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