Q. - diemaco C8A3 vs. colt M4

CreamySmooth said:
I keep saying it, but all of the RCMP Carbine operators I know prefer my 6920. And the main reason is what Greentips said. It's much faster to point. On the RCMP guns that's the barrel as well as the IUR that was not needed.

As well, knowing that the all the CC uppers and lowers that aren't IURs are coming from the same Cerro Forge in the U.S. anyway, it makes me wonder what parts are actually Canadian other than the barrel. And because of that, I'll buy a DD barrel as it's made the same anyway and they are available. Also, currently I can get a Colt USA barrel off IRunGuns for 139 U.S. so if I buy a spare I've got longer barrel life anyway. Accuracy wise, if the RCMP rifles are of any indication a) shooter matters more anyway b) between the CC guns and mine, my Colt USA outshot all 3 CC rifles...[/B]Never seen a Colt USA out shoot a C8 and I've tested both extensively


Colt Canada cool aid is strong stuff.
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I keep saying it, but all of the RCMP Carbine operators I know prefer my 6920. And the main reason is what Greentips said. It's much faster to point. On the RCMP guns that's the barrel as well as the IUR that was not needed.

We've tested lots of AR's in the last 6-7 yrs and there's simply no way I would pick a Colt USA before a C8 IUR, ever. By the way Greentips was referring to the Mil C8A3 or SA15.7. The C8 IUR we carry doesn't have the front heavy (400gr) sleeve. As a matter a fact, the barrel is tad lighter since it's 0.4" shorter so it's just as fast or faster to swing as any 6920 would be. The quad railed forend makes it a tad heavier but since the added weight is centered, it balances pretty nicely. Overall a better gun when moving around in CQ and oh so more capable of keeping accuracy in sustained fire.

Accuracy wise, if the RCMP rifles are of any indication a) shooter matters more anyway.

This is the only true part of your post and I agree 110 percent. The rest is, with all respect, plain BS.
 
CreamySmooth said:
I keep saying it, but all of the RCMP Carbine operators I know prefer my 6920. And the main reason is what Greentips said. It's much faster to point. On the RCMP guns that's the barrel as well as the IUR that was not needed.

As well, knowing that the all the CC uppers and lowers that aren't IURs are coming from the same Cerro Forge in the U.S. anyway, it makes me wonder what parts are actually Canadian other than the barrel. And because of that, I'll buy a DD barrel as it's made the same anyway and they are available. Also, currently I can get a Colt USA barrel off IRunGuns for 139 U.S. so if I buy a spare I've got longer barrel life anyway. Accuracy wise, if the RCMP rifles are of any indication a) shooter matters more anyway b) between the CC guns and mine, my Colt USA outshot all 3 CC rifles...

Colt Canada cool aid is strong stuff.
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The RCMP guns I played with were the 14.5 IUR.
 
Jarvy said:
That's why I didn't get one of the SA15.7s when they were out, as much as I wanted one. I know they're accurate, the craftmanship that goes into the barrels in particular fascinates me, but that barrel profile just makes no sense. The ones I handled felt heavier than my C7, which defeats the purpose of having a carbine. It just makes no sense to me. I knew if I bought one, I'd just sit there resenting it. It'd come out when I wanted to show friends what the Forces uses, but I don't think I'd actually shoot it much.

If they made their pencil-barreled C8s or C8A1s, I'd snap that up in a heartbeat.
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You have to look what it was designed for. It was design for SF units. The whole purpose for the heavy barrel is for more thermal mass for sustain full auto fire.
 
Well the patrol C8's all have 15.7" barrels w/o the front sleeve. In the ERT some have the sleeve for obvious reasons. It's a trade off, thermal mass for sustained fire accuracy vs balance. They are all 15.7" tho.
 
Jarvy said:
I figured as much, but how many full-auto mag dumps are these guys doing that it would be a requirement?
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After 200 rounds of F/A fire (6-7 mags) the barrel get so hot that harmonics are completely off. A CC barrel with sleeve will still be decently accurate (under 5MOA on the bench, about twice as accurate as our US counterparts).
 
Jarvy said:
I figured as much, but how many full-auto mag dumps are these guys doing that it would be a requirement?
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Like Rebel said, various special forces units use them to support the LMG and in some cases, where lugging the L110 around can be problematic, use them as an ersatz replacement. The simon sleeve is used to assist in damping the harmonics of firing the weapon in both firing modes. Using the the rifle in this role does mean that you have to be ready to put several hundred rounds down the pipe quite often. The reason for so much effort being put into the barrel and sleeve on these weapons is not just to handle mag dumps, but to provide a weapon with the ability to maintain some kind of accuracy through prolonged (like 36 hour and 1500rds) engagements. The weapon has been used in the limited LSW role out to 800m with good effect and has been used to effectively stop X-rays at distances estimated to be 750m in individual fire (just imagine the holdover on that!). It can be used in CQB, very effectively, but there is training and practice to be put in to get the desired results. It also helps to think about the crap you're putting on it too. An IRLAM, VFG and Optics are all that is needed for a good all environments rifle on civvie street. If you want to go crazy, you can ditch the VFG and slap a GL on the bottom, but boy does that mess with the moment arm when you swing it onto target.

-S.
 
OK so that makes more ssnese, but more than SOF guys were carrying it. I guess it's just "well, we're already making this model so..."

slap a GL on the bottom
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Oh man, even worse. I know when we went on a tour of the Colt Canada Factory, all the guys in my unit were really enthusiastic about the prototype stand-alone launcher. "You mean I DON'T have to attach it to my rifle making it ineffective? Great!"
 
Harry Callahan said:
After 200 rounds of F/A fire (6-7 mags) the barrel get so hot that harmonics are completely off. A CC barrel with sleeve will still be decently accurate (under 5MOA on the bench, about twice as accurate as our US counterparts).
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Truth, right there. There's a reason why USSOCOM picked up the M4A1 to replace their ageing M4s.

-S.
 
Jarvy said:
OK so that makes more ssnese, but more than SOF guys were carrying it. I guess it's just "well, we're already making this model so..."
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Well, why not? It's always good to use good stuff in bad places...

Oh man, even worse. I know when we went on a tour of the Colt Canada Factory, all the guys in my unit were really enthusiastic about the prototype stand-alone launcher. "You mean I DON'T have to attach it to my rifle making it ineffective? Great!"
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Yeah, PEQ-4, GL, ACOG 40mm round and a full mag doesn't sound like much, but it adds up after you have to carry it for a few hours!

-S.
 
Harry Callahan said:
I keep saying it, but all of the RCMP Carbine operators I know prefer my 6920. And the main reason is what Greentips said. It's much faster to point. On the RCMP guns that's the barrel as well as the IUR that was not needed.

We've tested lots of AR's in the last 6-7 yrs and there's simply no way I would pick a Colt USA before a C8 IUR, ever. By the way Greentips was referring to the Mil C8A3 or SA15.7. The C8 IUR we carry doesn't have the front heavy (400gr) sleeve. As a matter a fact, the barrel is tad lighter since it's 0.4" shorter so it's just as fast or faster to swing as any 6920 would be. The quad railed forend makes it a tad heavier but since the added weight is centered, it balances pretty nicely. Overall a better gun when moving around in CQ and oh so more capable of keeping accuracy in sustained fire.

Accuracy wise, if the RCMP rifles are of any indication a) shooter matters more anyway.

This is the only true part of your post and I agree 110 percent. The rest is, with all respect, plain BS.
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Your opinions are noted. Who's "we"??

Here's my B.S. opinion. Someone took advantage of an opportune time to flip to the most expensive section of the Colt Catalogue and picked the most expensive toy. It wasn't needed, and it's SLOWER by far than a regular M4 profile rifle. Full stop. My shot timer proves it over and over. Guys trained on the C8 IUR can shoot the M4 profile faster. Every. Single. Time. Under that IUR is a full heavy profile barrel. It's a pig inside of another heavy pig. It results in possibly the slowest rifle to acquire I have ever handled. So where you get that it's as fast as a 6920 is obviously not personal experience. The fact that the ERT team DOES NOT use it should tell you something.

That fore-end is attached to a Surefire and a foregrip (That operators aren't allowed to use?? WTF?? Put on with zip ties so that members can't move and customize?? Double WTF??). So 2 attachments. The taxpayer needs to pay for an IUR for that???

Let's address your other points.

"but since the added weight is centered, it balances pretty nicely." - Nope Nope-idy Nope Nope. I can't believe you said this. It's a front heavy pig.

"Overall a better gun when moving around in CQ" - I have 3 AR's that will destroy this rifle in this role The DD has a Cold Hammer Forged Barrel as well.. So again, I don't know where you get that.

"and oh so more capable of keeping accuracy in sustained fire" - Ha. That's funny. Since absolutely nowhere in the carbine training is this taught, it's a moot point. Since you only have 90 rounds issued it's again a moot point. Since a lowly Colt USA won't show adverse effects in these same 90 rounds, again... moot point.

I will take my B.S. and move on down the line. There could have been issued twice as many rifles for the same cost, but for an IUR. Ridiculous.

Here's some other funny facts about this Canadian Made patrol carbine from my observations.

Lower: Cerro Forge, Virginia USA.
IUR: Brass Aluminium Forging Enterprises. Ferndale, Michigan. USA.
Geiselle trigger. USA.
Aimpoint. Sweden.
Sights. Troy Industries. USA.
Surefire light. USA.
Vickers Sling: USA.
Charging Handle. No way to know but I'd assume Colt USA and the Badger Tactical Latch on it is US Made!
Inner and upper parts. I'm gonna assume not Canada.
Black Accuwedge. USA.

So the barrel is the only thing made in Canada. So much for "made in Canada". Don't know how they can slap that on the side of the rifle. It should say "Finished in Canada".

Have a good one Harry.
 
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They buy a raw forging and machine it to their specs. Some of the original C7/C8 will have a nested triple W, which is Waltech a Canadian company.
 
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CreamySmooth said:
Your opinions are noted. Who's "we"??

Here's my B.S. opinion. Someone took advantage of an opportune time to flip to the most expensive section of the Colt Catalogue and picked the most expensive toy. It wasn't needed, and it's SLOWER by far than a regular M4 profile rifle. Full stop. My shot timer proves it over and over. Guys trained on the C8 IUR can shoot the M4 profile faster. Every. Single. Time. Under that IUR is a full heavy profile barrel. It's a pig inside of another heavy pig. It results in possibly the slowest rifle to acquire I have ever handled. So where you get that it's as fast as a 6920 is obviously not personal experience. The fact that the ERT team DOES NOT use it should tell you something.

That fore-end is attached to a Surefire and a foregrip (That operators aren't allowed to use?? WTF?? Put on with zip ties so that members can't move and customize?? Double WTF??). So 2 attachments. The taxpayer needs to pay for an IUR for that???

Let's address your other points.

"but since the added weight is centered, it balances pretty nicely." - Nope Nope-idy Nope Nope. I can't believe you said this. It's a front heavy pig.

"Overall a better gun when moving around in CQ" - I have 3 AR's that will destroy this rifle in this role The DD has a Cold Hammer Forged Barrel as well.. So again, I don't know where you get that.

"and oh so more capable of keeping accuracy in sustained fire" - Ha. That's funny. Since absolutely nowhere in the carbine training is this taught, it's a moot point. Since you only have 90 rounds issued it's again a moot point. Since a lowly Colt USA won't show adverse effects in these same 90 rounds, again... moot point.

I will take my B.S. and move on down the line. There could have been issued twice as many rifles for the same cost, but for an IUR. Ridiculous.

Here's some other funny facts about this Canadian Made patrol carbine from my observations.

Lower: Cerro Forge, Virginia USA.
IUR: Brass Aluminium Forging Enterprises. Ferndale, Michigan. USA.
Geiselle trigger. USA.
Aimpoint. Sweden.
Sights. Troy Industries. USA.
Surefire light. USA.
Vickers Sling: USA.
Charging Handle. No way to know but I'd assume Colt USA and the Badger Tactical Latch on it is US Made!
Inner and upper parts. I'm gonna assume not Canada.
Black Accuwedge. USA.

So the barrel is the only thing made in Canada. So much for "made in Canada". Don't know how they can slap that on the side of the rifle. It should say "Finished in Canada".

Have a good one Harry.
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The force ERT teams across Canada uses the IUR with the M203A1 sleeve...

It may not be given to all members but some are able to customize their rifles the way they want (I agree that a majority will just use what is given to them). All that is needed is the boss approval/signature, witch is given after a 5-10 mins chat. This is not to spend more on useless stuff, it's to suit the rifle to the operator so it can be used to it's max potential. I'm not talking patrol rifle that will be used once a year to run a qualification course.

In regards to the "90 rounds carried" you never know when & how many rounds you'll have to use to neutralize the threat(s). Different scenarios means different tactics & obviously # of mags carried, you may have to use more than what's carried in the pouches anyway (a partner may have to feed you some more...etc).

I've fired both M4 & C8. I prefer to have the more accurate tool to be able to engage at longer distances (if needed) than "hoping" to make my shot with a hot, used & abused less accurate tool... That's just me, you would probably be fine with your 6920 as with a majority of members. But a C8 is way more accurate than an M4 past 50m weather it fires it's first or 200th shot in SA or FA, that alone could make the difference between a neutralized threat vs. a critical situation. While at it, the profile of the basic IUR w/o the CF M203A1 sleeve is no heavier than the M4. You're saying that it's a full heavy profile, it isn't, it's a medium profile (about 0.76" behind the GB and it thins out to about 0.65" up front) witch makes about the same weight minus 0.4". What's heavier on the C8 is the railed forend. Skilled vs. Skilled operator, the IUR makes a better allround rifle. That's just my opinion, no hard feelings.
 
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