Quality AR Suggestions
- Thread starter Willieno59
- Start date
Keep in mind that most quality, forged, 7075-T6 lowers are made by LMT, whether they be DSA, RRA, Stag/DPMS, and I think even Bushmaster. So as long as you go with a receiver from a 2nd, or 3rd tier company, you actually getting a 1st tier lower. It's the same with car batteries, you can buy a Die-Hard, Firestone, whatever, they are all actually made at the Cooper factory, then stamped, or colored to the desired "branding." So long as you have a good lower, you're always going to have something worthwhile, and upgradeable. Just stay away from anything cast, and remember that even billeted receivers, while fancy, do not have the strength of Forged.
Edit: Also, gas pistons in AR's are kind of a crap-shoot except for the HK-416. They are really cool, but the AR was designed to use direct gas impingement, and even if you throw in an awesome "piston kit" you are taking a chance. Personally, I have never had a problem with a standard AR gas system. They scuttle-butt out there about them being problematic is mostly leftovers from Vietnam, when the now 40+ year old platform was cutting it's teeth. Don't buy into the hype. The standard gas system on an AR is A-OK, and you will probably have more trouble with a drop in "piston kit" than if you had just left the now mature design to do it's thing the way it was originally intended to. A 900 dollar Bushmaster, or other 2nd/3rd tier AR, will do all the things that a 2 or 3K + AR will. The differences is in cosmetics and "wow" factor, not meat and potatoes performance or reliability. By that same token, a 600 dollar Oly will break your heart. Just go for the "sweet-spot" says I. All it takes is a little research and wisdom, and you will be a well satisfied AR owner.
Edit Again: Oh, and one more thing, once you go below 18 inches on the barrel of a .223, you start working against the round. I wouldn't go shorter than 16in. otherwise you don't really want a .223 rifle, you want a 9mm HK.
Edit: Also, gas pistons in AR's are kind of a crap-shoot except for the HK-416. They are really cool, but the AR was designed to use direct gas impingement, and even if you throw in an awesome "piston kit" you are taking a chance. Personally, I have never had a problem with a standard AR gas system. They scuttle-butt out there about them being problematic is mostly leftovers from Vietnam, when the now 40+ year old platform was cutting it's teeth. Don't buy into the hype. The standard gas system on an AR is A-OK, and you will probably have more trouble with a drop in "piston kit" than if you had just left the now mature design to do it's thing the way it was originally intended to. A 900 dollar Bushmaster, or other 2nd/3rd tier AR, will do all the things that a 2 or 3K + AR will. The differences is in cosmetics and "wow" factor, not meat and potatoes performance or reliability. By that same token, a 600 dollar Oly will break your heart. Just go for the "sweet-spot" says I. All it takes is a little research and wisdom, and you will be a well satisfied AR owner.
Edit Again: Oh, and one more thing, once you go below 18 inches on the barrel of a .223, you start working against the round. I wouldn't go shorter than 16in. otherwise you don't really want a .223 rifle, you want a 9mm HK.
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You made convincing argument so I thought maybe I should investigate Saber Defense. I E-mailed Wolverine Supplies and got this response:
Ok fair enough they were more pricey than I first thought but I will pay for quality. The problem I keep running into is "WHAT MODEL ARE YOU SELLING?" ( i did email back asking what models they were getting in).
www sabredefence.com/commercial.php
The XR15 rifle comes in 15 different models, this vagueness of wait and see what we are getting frustrates me to no end. I can got to Questar or Arms East and buy either a Stag or a Rock River AR15 for aprox $1,000 less.
Is waiting for quality worth it or should I just buy a cheaper one?
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Stag/DPMS and RRA are fine, fine AR's. You can't go wrong with either one of them. Bushmaster is just the same, but uses better barrels. Stag/DMPS, RRA, are Tier 3 AR's, but there is nothing that they won't accomplish for you, and they are well built. Bushmaster is Tier 2; again, nothing it will not do for you, and the barrels are of finer quality. The Sabers, LMT, etc. are Tier 1 and it's nothing but bragging rights and cosmetic/tacti-cool options. The LMT parkerizes under the Front Post/Gas Block assembly, which the other tiers don't do, but is that stuff really worth the massive cost increase? Are you really planning on humping a patrol out in the elements for months on end with this thing, and even then, is a spot of rust between the gas block and barrel after those months going to stop anyone's show?
I've owned all of those AR's at one time or another. I currently have a Bushmaster, but I wouldn't hesitate to buy another STAG or RRA either. They are all fine rifles. It's only when you get into the Tier 4 and below that you get serious problems.
Get a RRA, or STAG, or Bushmaster, save the cash, and enjoy it. If you maintain the rifle, it will last a lifetime, and if Zombies happen to attack, You're still going to be good for several months before some ugly rust ruins your day.
P.S. Some might say that the Sabre's and LMT's with the free float might archive somewhat greater accuracy because of tolerances, and the tube that they come with, but A: you can buy a nice free-float for your Tier 2 or 3 AR and still come out ahead, and B: The tolerances being just a touch tighter in the Tier 1 guns means that the are more finicky about what you feed them ammo wise. The Tier 2's and 3's will eat pretty much any ammo you want to feed them. I'd take that kind of gun over a "Tacti-Cool," "I eat only the finest caviar, or I won't come out to play" safe-queen any day. A hit is a hit, do I care if it's spot on, or 1 inch to the left at 200yds? No, and neither should anyone. I want my rifle to be tough as nails, and perform everytime I ask it to, regardless of if I feed it Dog Food, or Fillet Minion.
I've owned all of those AR's at one time or another. I currently have a Bushmaster, but I wouldn't hesitate to buy another STAG or RRA either. They are all fine rifles. It's only when you get into the Tier 4 and below that you get serious problems.
Get a RRA, or STAG, or Bushmaster, save the cash, and enjoy it. If you maintain the rifle, it will last a lifetime, and if Zombies happen to attack, You're still going to be good for several months before some ugly rust ruins your day.
P.S. Some might say that the Sabre's and LMT's with the free float might archive somewhat greater accuracy because of tolerances, and the tube that they come with, but A: you can buy a nice free-float for your Tier 2 or 3 AR and still come out ahead, and B: The tolerances being just a touch tighter in the Tier 1 guns means that the are more finicky about what you feed them ammo wise. The Tier 2's and 3's will eat pretty much any ammo you want to feed them. I'd take that kind of gun over a "Tacti-Cool," "I eat only the finest caviar, or I won't come out to play" safe-queen any day. A hit is a hit, do I care if it's spot on, or 1 inch to the left at 200yds? No, and neither should anyone. I want my rifle to be tough as nails, and perform everytime I ask it to, regardless of if I feed it Dog Food, or Fillet Minion.
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What do you think of the DPMS Panther Sweet 16? Its an AR with a free float handguard and a 16" heavy stainless barrel. Its reasonably priced, around $1,600.00.
Also, what sort of accuracy expectations should a guy have for an AR? Are they minute of angle? Are the precision shoot guns with the heavy target barrels a lot better accuracy? I'm not interested in a shorty, but a gun that has good accuracy for long range shooting.
Also, what sort of accuracy expectations should a guy have for an AR? Are they minute of angle? Are the precision shoot guns with the heavy target barrels a lot better accuracy? I'm not interested in a shorty, but a gun that has good accuracy for long range shooting.
Stag/DPMS and RRA are fine, fine AR's. You can't go wrong with either one of them. Bushmaster is just the same, but uses better barrels. Stag/DMPS, RRA, are Tier 3 AR's, but there is nothing that they won't accomplish for you, and they are well built. Bushmaster is Tier 2; again, nothing it will not do for you, and the barrels are of finer quality. The Sabers, LMT, etc. are Tier 1 and it's nothing but bragging rights and cosmetic/tacti-cool options. The LMT parkerizes under the Front Post/Gas Block assembly, which the other tiers don't do, but is that stuff really worth the massive cost increase? Are you really planning on humping a patrol out in the elements for months on end with this thing, and even then, is a spot of rust between the gas block and barrel after those months going to stop anyone's show?
I've owned all of those AR's at one time or another. I currently have a Bushmaster, but I wouldn't hesitate to buy another STAG or RRA either. They are all fine rifles. It's only when you get into the Tier 4 and below that you get serious problems.
Get a RRA, or STAG, or Bushmaster, save the cash, and enjoy it. If you maintain the rifle, it will last a lifetime, and if Zombies happen to attack, You're still going to be good for several months before some ugly rust ruins your day.
P.S. Some might say that the Sabre's and LMT's with the free float might archive somewhat greater accuracy because of tolerances, and the tube that they come with, but A: you can buy a nice free-float for your Tier 2 or 3 AR and still come out ahead, and B: The tolerances being just a touch tighter in the Tier 1 guns means that the are more finicky about what you feed them ammo wise. The Tier 2's and 3's will eat pretty much any ammo you want to feed them. I'd take that kind of gun over a "Tacti-Cool," "I eat only the finest caviar, or I won't come out to play" safe-queen any day. A hit is a hit, do I care if it's spot on, or 1 inch to the left at 200yds? No, and neither should anyone. I want my rifle to be tough as nails, and perform everytime I ask it to, regardless of if I feed it Dog Food, or Fillet Minion.
So what Tier is armalite or eagle arms... and are they forged 7075???...
Looked at one today. I really like it. But.... I think I would want a 20" barrel for a .223 target AR. That being said it sure handled nice and fast for a heavy barreled rifle. I'm still considering it. If we could use these for varmint hunting I would have bought it in a heartbeat. I'm still thinking about it, but will probably pass.
For what you described, I would take a look at the DPMS LR-308. With 167 grain Lapua ammo mine is extremely accurate. The only thing is you'll want to change out the trigger. I went with a RRA NM after reading other people's reports regarding the stock trigger. It was a good choice. Of course getting a LR-308 right now is very difficult.
I have to say that I think Stag isn't getting a fair rap in this thread. The Stag rifles we have here in Canada aren't the same as the ones in the states. They're better. I've looked over "the list" and some of the stuff that was listed as absent on the Stag I believe is in fact present on the one I bought from Arms East. I still have to shoot this rifle, but in terms of quality/options and price it's tough to beat.
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All the LMT I have and had, have the FSB, front handguard cap and barrel parkerized as one unit.
Once you have pulled the FSB, you can see the bare metal exposed on the FSB and the barrel.
I hate to say this - but this is kinda nonesense. What is this Tier 1,2, and 3 thingy anyways???
Tolerance means maxmium allowed deviation from the designated spec. So tight tolerance is no good...but loose tolerance at the risk of stacking deviations is good?
The "Tier System" is something that was come up with at AR-15.com by a Florida Police Officer. It's a ballpark method of rating AR manufactures, by taking into account their material and assembly processes rather than buying into a completed, branded, AR as a single thing. AR parts are many, but their recievers are few. It's how a company picks and chooses it's parts that makes them different. You've got to stop thinking of an AR as a whole thing, and more a collections of parts, put together a certain way. As I said, all Tier 1,2, and 3 AR's use the same lower reciever, a LMT reciever. As one branches out, different companies use different parts, and finishes to archive their final product. Go over to AR15.com if you need more sourcing. I'm just giving the basic low-down here.
I'd take STAG or even RRA anyday of the week and twice on Sunday over a Bushmaster or DPMS! As for "Top Tier" rifles, you can't go wrong with LMT, Noveske or Colt. To be honest, with the latter, the "name" is the best thing going for it, since, to be quite honest, the LMTs I own and the Noveske's I've handled are much more refined and offer far superior fit and finish compared to a stock Colt 6920/6921. They're almost always more accurate as well.
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Can someone comment on the S&W model and where it falls in the so called tiers?
The S&W M&P15 rates right up there at the top. According to Guns & Ammo it rates higher than Stag, Bushmaster, CMMG, RRA, Armalite and DPMS, and pretty close to the Sabre Defense when comparing mil-spec features.
The M&P15 has a Magnaflux (MPI) Pressure tested bolt, it's also shot peened. Black extractor spring insert, properly stacked gas key, which Stag, Bushmaster, and RRA all do not. Is has an M16 bolt carrier, M4 feed ramps, which the Stag, Bushmaster, and RRA do not have. It has a staked castle nut which the Bushmaster and RRA do not have. The fit and finish is fantastic, I have one and highly recommend it.
STAG and RAA do not use as high quality steel in their barrels as Bushmaster, or have completely contiguous M4 feed-ramps, or the lubricant dry-coat on the inside of the upper reciever like the Bushmaster does. Also, DPMS and STAG are the same company. STAG bought DPMS several years ago. They are the exact same gun, and neither are rated as highly as a Bushy. Bushmaster is not the best AR out there, but it is still one of the best. The real thing here is, the top 3 teirs are so close together in terms of functionality that the differences are minor and probably wouldn't matter at all to the average shooter.
Are you sure? I was under the impression that it was STAG who bought DPMS. As far as the brokerage firm who owns several AR companies in addition to other holdings, I think Cerberus is correct, but that's a brokerage/investment firm. I don't think they have very much to do with the policy or manufacturing decisions. They just collect part of the money. Doesn't Cerberus have a hand in Colt as well? At any rate, the feed-ramp cuts, dry-lube coating, and most importantly the barrel steel of the Bushy is what sets it apart. Key staking could be better, but that's easy to solve. Of course, DPMS, RRA, pretty much anything except Blue Star or Olympic are all good guns for civilian shooters, and not very far off the mark from the military versions; not enough to truly matter IMO. Actually, the longer barrels on civilian M4 clones are better for accuracy. 14.5in. is too short, and leaves a lot of performance on the table.
yes but how much money do you have to spend on it to get it to shoot that way?
