Question about C7

Seyek said:
I take it then that the SAT trainer isn't a very good training aid? I only used it once, briefly, with the C8, but I figured it would make a good training for reinforcing some of the marksmanship principles given the relative lack of live fire training we get.
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Sure they are a good training aid: for basic skils and drills. The ones we have are good for static drills only for the most part. Not so much for moving and shooting, or shooting through conditions.
Our SATS are so old school, having the weapons slaved to the SAT is the real limitation. It's like having a shop-vac connected to your magazine.
 
Wow there are a lot of crap responses to this question, most of you have no clue although talk like you know it all, also a lot of the videos on youtube are from BMQ, SQ and Battleschools, and in most training your superiors do not want you touching your slings at all especially for aid in anyway except for in battleschool we were aloud to have single point slings when we needed to use our hands for something els but if we werent working and we had a sling on we had to have our action hand on the grip at all times, and if we were marching or rucking anywhere there were no slings at all. The bottom line is we were taught not to use anything to make jobs easier lol and not have a bit of laziness in you. Also I saw a comment about marksmanship becomeing a dieing art and someone called BS on that, that call was from someone who clearly is not in the military at all. I am 1 RCR and if I hadn't done work up training for tour I wouldn't have fired a live round in forever! You do not get any range time at all and once your done your BMQ you really do not fire any rounds unless you have SQ and thats very minimal and you fire a lot in battleschool but once your in battalion you never fire live rounds and when you do its just wing it and see how you do:runaway:. Any other trade than Infantry deffinatly never fires rounds! Anyways to answer your question, slings are not being used in the videos because they are from cf training and in most CF training they do not want want you using it. Once your in Battalion no one cares
 
Shelldrake said:
15 years ago,, the CFSAC you know hasn't existed for 8 years. The CFSAC of 4 years ago (Post Pause), was not like the CFSAC of the last two years (Post NSCC Split). The CFSAC of this year will be unlike any of the previous.
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Just to give some perspective on where I am coming from on this, and not to compare #### sizes: I should add:
My first CFSAC was 2002, the last of the old way before the pause. I heard stories of how bad things were in the past, but 2002 was a pretty good go.
Then I shot NSCC 2003, 2004, 2005 and 2006 during the CFSAC Pause. Numbers were small, but they were all well run competitions with guys who really wanted to be there.
Then CFSAC returned in 2007 and I competed in the NSCC/CFSAC of 2007 and the split NSCC CFSAC in 2008 and 2009.
I hope to be there again in 2010.
I also had the pleasure of making the CF Combat Shooting Team to Scotland in 2003 and to Bisley in 2007 (1 RCR hosting), and in 2008 (4 AD Regt hosting).

I have had some success at these shoots, but then again I have had the luxury of having a unit and CO's that are willing to support advanced marksmanship programs above or outside of the standard unit training plan. Ammo is rarely a problem. Time is. In other words, I shoot a lot and make sacrifices to do so. It is something I like to do.

Having Senior leadership on your side works wonders. Gunnerlove and Longshot can certainly attest to that, and are the top two shots from CFSAC 2010 (if Gunnerlove is who I think he is).

PS: I think we have successfully hijacked this thread about slings in the Black Rifle Forum, to a discussion of Marksmanship/CFSAC for the Service Rifle Forum.
 
Funny how this post started out on the use of a sling and it gets around to how CFSAC is being run. Old CFSAC, new CFSAC, CF Gunfighter Crse. (No such thing)(Though God loves the PPCLI Gunfighters)

Most of these posts should go towards the CFSAC Forum.

SAT? I don't like the cable that is hooked up to the rifles. If I can't get to a range I prefer to use Laser Shot. I am lucky, have one in my office. I even have a little range in my basement but still doesn't beat putting quality rounds down range in the fresh air.

Gunfighter Crse, refer to Canadian Operational Shooting Programme PWT 4 Carbine. This is all the QAS requirements. There are even errors in the published pam but these will get sorted out. "Rome wasn't built in a day."

FYI, I used to shoot the FNC1 with the mag on the ground, never had a stoppage. Had some really nice shoots in CFSAC, ASSAM and CENTSAM, to mention a few.

Practice your skills. Practice what you don't like to do, get better at it.

Perfect practice makes perfect.
 
No doubt live rounds are far superior to anything like a SAT trainer, but given how little weapons training is actually done, at least at the reserve level, I can see its use, when combined with dry fire practice and coaching, practicing fire and movement, weapon drills, etc, in reinforcing the fundamentals in the absence of actually being able to go to a range. I was also told that in the years to come our new armouries would have the new SAT trainers installed (we were told their negotiation the contract right now), I don't know what sort of improvements they'll have, but maybe they'll add a little more freedom to the weapons.

Practice does make perfect, but at least amonst the reserves, we never seem to get to practice. I just got my first AR, so in the coming days I'll be able to get at least some shooting practice in on my own time, but only out to 200 meters at the range I go to, and in a limited and controlled environment. Better than nothing to be sure, and I can do dry fire and weapon drills at home as well on it.

As for the original question regarding slings, I think that was already answered well enough. Perhaps the latter posts could be split off into a new thread by a mod?
 
airjmc87 said:
Wow there are a lot of crap responses to this question, most of you have no clue although talk like you know it all, also a lot of the videos on youtube are from BMQ, SQ and Battleschools, and in most training your superiors do not want you touching your slings at all especially for aid in anyway except for in battleschool we were aloud to have single point slings when we needed to use our hands for something els but if we werent working and we had a sling on we had to have our action hand on the grip at all times, and if we were marching or rucking anywhere there were no slings at all. The bottom line is we were taught not to use anything to make jobs easier lol and not have a bit of laziness in you. Also I saw a comment about marksmanship becomeing a dieing art and someone called BS on that, that call was from someone who clearly is not in the military at all. I am 1 RCR and if I hadn't done work up training for tour I wouldn't have fired a live round in forever! You do not get any range time at all and once your done your BMQ you really do not fire any rounds unless you have SQ and thats very minimal and you fire a lot in battleschool but once your in battalion you never fire live rounds and when you do its just wing it and see how you do:runaway:. Any other trade than Infantry deffinatly never fires rounds! Anyways to answer your question, slings are not being used in the videos because they are from cf training and in most CF training they do not want want you using it. Once your in Battalion no one cares
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???
 
Shelldrake said:
15 years ago,, the CFSAC you know hasn't existed for 8 years. The CFSAC of 4 years ago (Post Pause), was not like the CFSAC of the last two years (Post NSCC Split). The CFSAC of this year will be unlike any of the previous.
Click to expand...


Yes I know,I said I wasn't shooting,didn't say I don't keep tabs on what is going on.
 
airjmc87 said:
I agree, now its just we dont get any training....sat trainer, live, blanks... we dont get any training once in battalion
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What fricken Bn are you in?

FYI a Single Point sling on a C7/A1/A2 is retarded, the thing will pendulum beyond all holy hell - and sack you at the most in appropriate of times.
- Yes I advocated them for a bit, I had out Mat-Tech making them, and Dump Pouches, due to the ####ty method of CF sling attachment positions (no rails "officially" outside of CANSOF) its a nightmare. The C8SFW or whatever they are called outside of CANSOF now is as long as one can really use a Single Point, and really they are only pratical for C8CQB's without the can, unless you've got groin protection and can live with the sway.


Since no of us are omniescient (sp?) weapon training needs to cover CQB, UKD, and Markmanship (which is easiest taught on the KD).
I shot NSCC in '04 (and a CFSAC or two prior), I shot in sandals and shorts while on leave, while fun, it had zero relevancy to anything 'real'.

To paraphrase a friend "imagine the result with real stresors of hot metal bumble bees and hamburger on the walls"
Stress at CFSAC is not getting the ranges cleaned up in time for happy hour.
 
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