Question about neck tension & crimping (pls help)

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Reaper of the apocalypse

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Hi, I need a little help here.
I'm loading for 6.5x55 for my Mauser. Everything seems good, except I've read that you don't really need to crimp rifles cartridges because the neck tension of a reformed case is good enough.

Now, I tried that. And before crimping, the case does hold the projectile, but with just a little effort I can pull the bullet right out. Is that's how it's supposed to be?

Also, when I tried loading a test round (everything complete but with no powder charge) and I tried loading into the chamber, it's a little "clunky" which is weird.
 
For a sporter or milsurp rifle, a properly sized neck, inside diameter, will be .002" or .003" smaller than the bullet. You should not be able to insert or pull out the bullet with your fingers. I have been reloading centerfire rifle sporting cartridges since the 1970's and can not recall ever crimping a jacketed bullet, except into a crimp groove, and usually I do not, even then. The bullet should readily enter a fired case neck that has not been resized.
The second part of your question about "clunky" and "weird" - I can not really help with that. A Mauser is a controlled round action, and was designed to require a cartridge to be inserted into the magazine, with the bolt open. Then close the bolt and the cartridge will chamber. An unaltered Mauser will not allow inserting a cartridge directly into the chamber - the bolt won't fully close.
 
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Precision ammo I don't crimp.
Everything else I crimp.

My 6.5x55 loads all get crimped. I had a similar experience to yours where I could just pluck the bullets right out of the sized cases. I determined the Lee collet necksizing die I had wasn't sizing small enough. Never addressed it, just started using the FL sizing die. That rifle gets very little use so it's not high on my priority list.
 
OP:
Are you saying that a test (dummy) round uncrimped held the bullet tightly, but somehow loosened up after you crimped?
 
I don't crimp any rifle ammunition, unless it is to be used in a tubular magazine. I use .0015 to .002" of neck tension in my 6.5x55 loads, and you won't move the bullets with your fingers.
 
If you are neck sizing or Full Length sizing there is no way you should be able to pull out a bullet.

Something is wrong. Crimping is called for if you can't solve the problem.

Is it very old brass that has been loaded many times and needs annealing?
 
I once had a similar experience and I ended up putting it down to a die, or more specifically a neck expander ball that was out to lunch

With the expander ball the neck tension was so loose that the bullet could easily be slid in or out

With the expander ball removed the neck tension was at the extreme other end of the scale - the bullet was SUPER tight

I use different dies now
 
Could be the sizing die or even the rifle chamber but this showed up often when I was reloading 6.6x55. Turned out that the different brands of cases that I was using ( Dominion, Norma, Sako, PRV and maybe a few others) varied a lot in brass thickness, elasticity and also capacity. Settled on one brand ( Norma) and no more problems.
 
sail32 said:
I use the Lee Factory Crimp Die.
Click to expand...

I did too but with correct neck tension (0.002") you shouldn't need too. Crimping a round that is so loose it can be slid in and out at will is simply a band aid in my experience.

I still crimp on my bulk loads for plinking but don't for my bolt guns in case it puts a "waist" on the round which will negatively affect accuracy.
 
I've had a few instances of loose fitting bullets, most notably with TSX bullets. At one time I was willing to write it off as a Barnes thing but other cases popped up after that.

Some I was able to cure by taking .001" or so off the expander ball. In others I could go down a size in bushings and get it that way. Sometimes the culprit was necks thinning with multiple loading, and others from hardened necks but inevitably the ball or the bushing cured it. One .375 needed a different die.

A rather baffling one was a STW that I bought from a friend, along with bushing dies, bullets and cases. He had mentioned having a loose bullet issue, which both of us just sort of assumed was some version of bad cases. Anyway, typical bushings of .002-.003" under didn't work. Since sane didn't work, might as well jump right in to insane as I has piles of bushing around. Turns out .008" didn't hold one bit better than .002". That sort of defies logic, but there it was. Since it couldn't be the die (4 sets on hand) next was to take a suspicious look at the cases. Didn't expect much, but annealed a few to try. Good thing I didn't expect much because I got nothing.

It was bit of a head scratcher at this point, but it just so happened that I had another box of the same 180 VLDs on the bench that I used in my 7-300. Sort of on a whim I tried one of those and they held perfectly. Went back to .002" under bush in and it still held. Tried 5 and they were all good. Went back to the original and they were all loose. There was a barely perceptible taper to the bullet shank with the bottom being bigger. The deeper I seated them the looser they got.

I don't know if the moral of the story is to check the bullets if all else fails, or to check that first. Either way, bad bullets exist. ;)
 
You are sure the bullets are the right size? If so:

What are you using to neck size? Is it part of the full length die or a separate neck sizing die of some sort? Bottom line is that the neck isn’t getting squeezed enough to hold the bullet with a couple of thou neck tension and you have to figure out why and how to fix it.

Could be like Ganderite says and the brass of the neck is so old and hardened, that while it gets squeezed to size properly, it just springs back wider. If you are using a neck sizing die with a bushing it might be as simple as dropping down the bushing size used a thou or two. If a Lee collet neck die the mandrel can be replaced with one a couple of thou smaller. Get in touch with Lee. If you want to go the annealing route, be prepared for some extensive reading about the various methods available, how annealing works, how each method works, their costs, etc, etc.

Could be like others have said, the expander ball in the die used to size the neck is too large. Not very common but it does happen. This problem would have been present right from the very first reload. If so, to check, take the die apart and remove the ball. Resize a couple of cases without it and test them by seating a bullet. If this works, either leave the ball out or get in touch with the manufacturer to see if you can get a new expander ball properly sized for your die/bullet.

if you are using a one piece neck and body type die then, if the neck portion is worn or oversized, it might need replacing. Instead, another option I’d strongly suggest, is using a Lee collet neck die. This is NOT the Lee collet crimp die which is a bit of overkill although, if you already have one, it could be adjusted to give just enough crimp to keep going for now.
 
Thanks everyone for the replies, I'll update with more info.

I'm using once fired (by me) PPU brass. Pretty new, no old stuff. I'm using a Lee full length resizing/decapping die, Lee bullet seating die, and Lee factory crimp die.
Some of my cases are so loose, there's basically zero tension. I could tap the bullet lightly with my finger and it drops all the way into the case. Nothing.

I'll try some of your ideas... But if this updated info helps then go ahead and lemme know what you think
 
Bullet grip is determined primarily by the expander diameter, neck thickness, It is also controlled by how much the die reduces the neck diameter and brass spring back.

Whidden custom dies sells expander kits with five expanderes from bullet diameter to .004 under bullet diameter.

I would measure the expander diameter and make sure it is at least .001 to .002 smaller than bullet diameter.

If you wish you can polish the expander smaller with fine sandpaper and reduce its diameter.

I would also remove the dies expander and measure how much the case neck is reduced in diameter. Then install the expander, size the case again and see how much the expander increased the neck diameter.

Below many AR15 reloaders use the Lyman type "M" expander to increase bullet grip. This expander is .003 smaller than bullet diameter to increase bullet grip and the case mouth is bumped on to the .226 section to aid straight inline seating.

NOTE, RCBS AR Series dies have a taper crimp and are primarily used to streamline the case mouth for feeding. Meaning with .002 to .003 bullet grip crimping is not necessary.

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Reaper of the apocalypse said:
Thanks everyone for the replies, I'll update with more info.

I'm using once fired (by me) PPU brass. Pretty new, no old stuff. I'm using a Lee full length resizing/decapping die, Lee bullet seating die, and Lee factory crimp die.
Some of my cases are so loose, there's basically zero tension. I could tap the bullet lightly with my finger and it drops all the way into the case. Nothing.

I'll try some of your ideas... But if this updated info helps then go ahead and lemme know what you think
Click to expand...

Can't tell. Simplist way to solve this: get a Lee neck collet die. They are very inexpensive. Probably solve your problem immediately. Use it instead of the Lee crimp die.
 
rick357 said:
Can't tell. Simplist way to solve this: get a Lee neck collet die. They are very inexpensive. Probably solve your problem immediately. Use it instead of the Lee crimp die.
Click to expand...

This ^^^^ is ultimately what I did after a similar issue and it worked
 
Measure your expander ball. Had a brand new set of .22-250 Redding dies do the same thing, had a .243 expander instead of a.224 emailed Redding and they sent me a new one.
 
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