Question about pistol "copies"

Sunman

Sunman

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I have been reading, and researching my first firearm purchase. And I have noticed a few "copies" of popular pistols. I see many companies make a 1911 version, which all look basically alike. As well as Norinco makes a Sig 226 clone. My question is, are these "knock offs" or are they licensed from the original manufacturer? Would accessories for the original, work on the clone or copy? I have lots of time to do more research, I figure at least 3-4 months for my rpal to come in, so no rush. I just thought I would ask. I did try a search, but nothing relevant came up that I saw.

And a different question, which somebody may know the answer to. When I get my rpal, I understand that to get a handgun, I must be a member of a gun club / range. If I am, I can apply for a LTATT which I believe, allows me to transport that firearm from home to the club at any time. Now, can I be a member of more than 1 club? Can I get 2 LTATT for the same firearm, to 2 different destinations? If I get a LTATT for 1 club, can I go shoot at another club just by calling in to get an ATT? How long are ATT's good for? So many questions now!

Thanks in advance for any help.
 
One att will cover both clubs.... Im guessing that each club will make you do their att/safety course still. my att says something along the lines of 'to any approved range in ontario' But Ive read that the ON CFO says we have to get an invitation to a particular club first now.
 
Whoa, slow down there! lol
Just Kidding,
Good on you for getting your Rpal!

The guns that get copied, are sold legally, and work with about 95% of the accessories of the originals. The norincos are made in china, work fine but the finish is usually less quailty. Norinco doesn't pay royalties, and quite a few of the norinco guns are slighlty different in some internal way, or atleast that is my understanding.


For your other question, Technically you dont need a club membership to get a firearm. The cfo just uses the gun club membership to verify your intent for having said firearm. Its a whole lot of bs, but since your new, it really doesnt matter. Get a membership, and your good to go. Get as many as you want!
Once you have a membership you can ask for a Ltatt which in alberta gives you 5 years to take any guns registered to you or that you have the registration certificate for to any offical range, gunsmith, or border without requiring to call in for a short term.The most common reason for getting a short term, is when your selling a restricted, and the transfer is complete and you are taking it to the post office to mail to the new owner.

Each province cfo's a bit different, but for me, my 1 range membership was good enough for my att any time to any range, membership or not, for 5 years til i renew, aslong as its with the provinces borders.
I frequently go as a guest to the range my dad is a member at, or go to drop in ranges and dont need to call the cfo.

Welcome to the wonderful world of restricted!
 
Don't trust us, when you get your ATT doublecheck every single word. You easterners are saddled with all kinds of ridiculous restrictions.
 
I'm in Niagara Region, in Ontario, club ATT is one year, to and from club only, call for ATT for everything else. It's not so bad though. Once in a while, you get lucky. Called for my dad, he was moving. They didn't even ask to talk to him. Let me do his address change, then gave me a number for the ATT, said just write the number down. I asked if they could email me one to print, they said not necessary, but emailed me one anyway. Checked 15 min. later, it was there. Start to finish 1/2 hour. They even said they would give him an ATT good for a year to go to my club as my guest, and he only has possession only for prohib. In Bantario! Go figure.
 
Lots of good att info so onto the gun question.

1911's are a special case. Being one of, if not the most, popular guns to mod it has a ton of parts available from a wide variety of sources. Most ' drop in ' parts are made pretty loose to accommodate a wide number of manufacturers. Some can still require a bit of fitting in order to work to spec. Match grade stuff will rarely drop in without a bit to alot of fitting.

When it comes to the Norc's, Girsan's, Feg's, and so many others, the only thing you can do is ask someone who's got one or the dealer/distributor what parts interchangeability is. As to the NP58 I've heard the grips will swap in most cases but that's about it. I don't recall seeing any posts where someone has gone much further than that, so do a detailed forum search first and if you can't find an answer then ask.

For what it's worth my general rule of thumb is no, until proven otherwise.
 
Sunman said:
I have been reading, and researching my first firearm purchase. And I have noticed a few "copies" of popular pistols. I see many companies make a 1911 version, which all look basically alike. As well as Norinco makes a Sig 226 clone. My question is, are these "knock offs" or are they licensed from the original manufacturer? Would accessories for the original, work on the clone or copy? I have lots of time to do more research, I figure at least 3-4 months for my rpal to come in, so no rush. I just thought I would ask. I did try a search, but nothing relevant came up that I saw.
Click to expand...

When a manufacturer comes out with a new design, they Patent it, when a gun is under Patent, they have exclusive rights to that design and anyone copying it has to have rights to use it which usually involves royalties. The 1911 was put into service with the US Military in 1911 so that design can be used by anyone as it's over 100 years old, most patents are good for about 7 years. The Sig has been out much longer than that so it's been 'copied'.
There are lots of 'copies' out there, like the CZ 75 has been copied not only by Norc but Tanfoglio has a version of it as well.
the Beretta is an interesting story as they got a contract with the Brazillian government who had a stipulation that they have a factory in their country if they were going to buy, so Beretta built the factory, got the order, then sold off the factory and tooling to Taurus who still produces a version of a Beretta.

So... as long as the patent is up, anyone can produce, some are cheap replicas, some improve on the design and make it better.
As for accesories, you will need to do your research, since they are copies, there are design changes to either improve, or make cheaper so some things do not transfer through for direct swaps.
 
Thanks for all the info. It was a bit surprising that I saw so many copies of popular guns. Does anyone make a decent copy of the Glocks?
 
Sunman said:
Thanks for all the info. It was a bit surprising that I saw so many copies of popular guns. Does anyone make a decent copy of the Glocks?
Click to expand...

Not really. Glock is a unique brand. I believe the polymer they use is proprietary. Further the action, trigger, etc. are all Glock trademarks and are not easily copied. Most people who like Glock, buy Glock. If you're looking for an affordable polymer-framed, striker-fired pistol, you could do worse than a Ruger SR9. They generally run about $100 cheaper than Glock, S&W, or Springfield. I've never heard any complaint from anyone who has bought a Ruger.

Having said that, standard advice is to recommend the new shooter begin with a .22. Most .22s are affordable, accurate and reliable. If you've not done a good deal of handgun shooting, then you're going to be surprised by just how difficult it really is. If you want to avoid frustration, then you should start small to work out the basics of handgun shooting. Most experienced shooters make shooting 9mm look easy, but I can assure you it isn't. Especially if you're interested in polymer pistols. They tend to be lighter than steel and as such the muzzle flips skyward on recoil. It can be frightening or at the very least irritating to a new shooter who's just trying to hit the tin can.

There's a myriad of .22 handguns on the market in all sorts of styles. I won't recommend one because you're going to shoot the one you like best. It's just that simple. You can buy all the nail-drivers you want, but if you don't like it for whatever reason, you're not going to shoot it. So take your time. Head to a gun shop and pick up as many as you can. Go to the range with an experienced shooter. Most will be more than happy to walk you through their collection and let you try whatever you want (if you're buying the beer afterwards). Further, they can give you a few pointers to get you started in terms of stance, grip, breathing, etc.

It's a really fun hobby. But like anything can be full of snobs. Someone's always trying to tell you your equipment sucks and you need to buy something else or whatever it is they happen to like this week. I wasted a good deal of time and money of stuff I didn't really want when I first started. Everyone's got an opinion about what the "best" is. It's all BravoSierra. Buy what you like and shoot it often. It'll pay off in the end. It's about having a good time.
 
By your accounting, you have three to four months before you can buy a gun. Do yourself a favour and save up for a quality pistol. The clones might be fine, but the real deal will always be better. (1911s notwithstanding, there are a lot of companies making these, and everyone but Colt is a clone, technically). There will be a time later when you can consider a clone, when you want to try out a new platform, but make your first one a good one.

That being said, my first AR-15 (another heavily cloned gun ) is a Norinco. I got it to try the platform as I haven't been enthralled by other rifles. I'm now hooked on the AR, and can get something more up-market later. But my first gun was a Glock, and it won't leave my possession.
 
If you're in the market for a decently priced Glock, keep an eye on Police Ordinance, as well as I Run Guns. Every so often they get trade-in models that you can sometimes score for quite a bit less than retail.

Or go sniff around the Prophet River Firearms subforum, maybe send some messages to people who posted there about their recent overstock sale, someone might be willing to let their new gun go for more than they bought it but still less than retail.

If you can, buy something quality. If you like the cheap clone, that's great for you, but don't compromise. Remember that in many cases you might be looking at $450 for the new clone gun, or $550 for a decent used one.

Some people take pride in having as many guns as possible, and that's fine, but I'd prefer to have a few guns that I am completely satisfied with.
 
Like people have been saying, some Norc parts fit and some don't. I have a Norc NP-22 and a new P226. The slides don't interchange, the NP-22 is based on the original German design. The grips interchange, but the grip screws don't. Stuff like that.

The Sig is noticeably better quality, fewer machining marks, more accurate.
 
From what I've seen the Norc "copies" of other pistols are summed up as "rough copies" of the real versions. Fit/finish/"smoothness" is where you'll find the most obvious differences. Durability of the parts, pieces, finish, etc...are a bit less obvious. They'll usually go bang when you want them to but if you're the picky type or like "fine things" you may find yourself wanting other things as soon as the "new gun" itch has been scratched (especially since in the process of actually being able to make it go boom for the first time there's often a delay or wait). In the end...it's up to the individual as to what's good enough for themselves.

So far as accessories/etc...being a "rough" copy of something at 1/3-1/4 of the price it would be fair to say that accessories should, but may not fit/work. The devil will be in the details an while all the parts/grooves/notches might be there...they may not be held to the same tolerances/specs as other makes. Things like slide weight might differ as well so springs and stuff like that may not have the same effect. Might work, might not. A buddy of mine has several Norc guns and is just fine with them. Another has tried several and poo-poos them in comparison to the real versions.

Re. the STATT/LTATT, clubs, etc....I won't comment on the "technically" this or that. But I just went through the process and while I can't say it's the same for every club, here's what it was for me.
* Already had my RPAL....
1. Joined Silverdale...paid, took little club orientation same day, got membership card...all done same day.
2. Bought a pistol...paid for it, went home, hid the bill from my wife, waited for STATT. Pistol stays at store...store will call when they have STATT.
3. A week later got the Registration cert for the pistol in the mail from the CFO. Says I own model ###x serial number yyyyy
4. About a week later, maybe a bit more, I get a call from the store saying that the STATT is here and I can come get the pistol....take reg cert, RPAL with me and go get pistol. Take pistol straight home...lock it up appropriately. *Make sure you have a trigger lock (or some other pistol disabling device) and a lock for the pistol case!!! I was lucky that I had some extras in my range bag....if you have pistol ammo that needs to be locked separately from pistol. STATT is now useless...it does not permit anything else and pistol must stay in the residence that is listed.
5. Sign up and wait for club ATT course.
6. Take course (half day), notify that I have a restricted pistol already (they put in the LTATT application next business day if you do...otherwise you have to tell them when you have one and then they'll put in your app) and do first probation shoot (4 required)
7. Do other probation shoots...once the shoots are finished the club will give you your ATT if it has arrived (otherwise wait)
8. Club gets LTATT...lets you know
9. You're good to go back and forth to that club...or any other CFO approved restricted range that you have an "invite" to (an invite can be a letter printed from that other club's website, it can be an e-mail from a member saying 'come shoot with me', it can be the competition schedule for IPSC/IPDA matches, etc...)

Time elapsed for #2-4...about 3 weeks.
Time elapsed for #6-9...about 4 weeks.

Compare all that to buying/shooting a non-restricted rifle.
1. Walk into store...buy SKS and crate of ammo...hide bills from wife
2. Go to club
3. Shoot
4. Go back to store to buy more cleaning stuff, ammo, another rifle, etc....LOL

My understanding is this (at least for those clubs I've looked at)...If you are a member of a second (or third/etc..) range you may be required to do their ATT course and to do their probation shoots. They may waive some or all parts of that on a case by case basis....dunno, ask them.

Your LTATT will have a "home range" on it. It will only have one. If you want to make your home range one other than whats on it, you need to have the CFO make that change (via whatever paperwork required). Your LTATT is valid until your RPAL expires (at least that's what mine says). Both must be renewed.

Your club (at least Silverdale does this) will renew your LTATT for you when the date is coming up...you need to renew your RPAL. If you are not a "member in good standing" (i.e. haven't paid up, etc...) then they will notify the CFO and have your LTATT canceled. I believe that club may give you a 2 month grace period to settle up...but dunno, ask your club for specifics.

Hope that helps
 
m102404 said:
From what I've seen the Norc "copies" of other pistols are summed up as "rough copies" of the real versions. Fit/finish/"smoothness" is where you'll find the most obvious differences. Durability of the parts, pieces, finish, etc...are a bit less obvious. They'll usually go bang when you want them to but if you're the picky type or like "fine things" you may find yourself wanting other things as soon as the "new gun" itch has been scratched (especially since in the process of actually being able to make it go boom for the first time there's often a delay or wait). In the end...it's up to the individual as to what's good enough for themselves.

So far as accessories/etc...being a "rough" copy of something at 1/3-1/4 of the price it would be fair to say that accessories should, but may not fit/work. The devil will be in the details an while all the parts/grooves/notches might be there...they may not be held to the same tolerances/specs as other makes. Things like slide weight might differ as well so springs and stuff like that may not have the same effect. Might work, might not. A buddy of mine has several Norc guns and is just fine with them. Another has tried several and poo-poos them in comparison to the real versions.

Re. the STATT/LTATT, clubs, etc....I won't comment on the "technically" this or that. But I just went through the process and while I can't say it's the same for every club, here's what it was for me.
* Already had my RPAL....
1. Joined Silverdale...paid, took little club orientation same day, got membership card...all done same day.
2. Bought a pistol...paid for it, went home, hid the bill from my wife, waited for STATT. Pistol stays at store...store will call when they have STATT.
3. A week later got the Registration cert for the pistol in the mail from the CFO. Says I own model ###x serial number yyyyy
4. About a week later, maybe a bit more, I get a call from the store saying that the STATT is here and I can come get the pistol....take reg cert, RPAL with me and go get pistol. Take pistol straight home...lock it up appropriately. *Make sure you have a trigger lock (or some other pistol disabling device) and a lock for the pistol case!!! I was lucky that I had some extras in my range bag....if you have pistol ammo that needs to be locked separately from pistol. STATT is now useless...it does not permit anything else and pistol must stay in the residence that is listed.
5. Sign up and wait for club ATT course.
6. Take course (half day), notify that I have a restricted pistol already (they put in the LTATT application next business day if you do...otherwise you have to tell them when you have one and then they'll put in your app) and do first probation shoot (4 required)
7. Do other probation shoots...once the shoots are finished the club will give you your ATT if it has arrived (otherwise wait)
8. Club gets LTATT...lets you know
9. You're good to go back and forth to that club...or any other CFO approved restricted range that you have an "invite" to (an invite can be a letter printed from that other club's website, it can be an e-mail from a member saying 'come shoot with me', it can be the competition schedule for IPSC/IPDA matches, etc...)

Time elapsed for #2-4...about 3 weeks.
Time elapsed for #6-9...about 4 weeks.

Compare all that to buying/shooting a non-restricted rifle.
1. Walk into store...buy SKS and crate of ammo...hide bills from wife
2. Go to club
3. Shoot
4. Go back to store to buy more cleaning stuff, ammo, another rifle, etc....LOL

My understanding is this (at least for those clubs I've looked at)...If you are a member of a second (or third/etc..) range you may be required to do their ATT course and to do their probation shoots. They may waive some or all parts of that on a case by case basis....dunno, ask them.

Your LTATT will have a "home range" on it. It will only have one. If you want to make your home range one other than whats on it, you need to have the CFO make that change (via whatever paperwork required). Your LTATT is valid until your RPAL expires (at least that's what mine says). Both must be renewed.

Your club (at least Silverdale does this) will renew your LTATT for you when the date is coming up...you need to renew your RPAL. If you are not a "member in good standing" (i.e. haven't paid up, etc...) then they will notify the CFO and have your LTATT canceled. I believe that club may give you a 2 month grace period to settle up...but dunno, ask your club for specifics.

Hope that helps
Click to expand...

It helped very much!! Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions, and all the extra information. I do appreciate it. I must say, I was hesitant at first to ask some questions here. I find that some of the veteran forum members have little patience for newbies. Just from some of the responses. I read quite a bit here, even for stuff I know I will not be interested in doing, like hunting. And YouTube is full of videos for almost every gun, from reviews to cleaning, dis-assembly etc. I can't wait to get out and shoot. You mentioned the SKS rifle deals, and they did pique my interest, but all the talk about corrosive ammo, kinda put me off. For first rifle, I think 10/22 is my choice, and hand gun, well still considering. But the Glock 9mm, with a 22 conversion kit is at the top of the list. I want a pistol that I can shoot with .22, for economy, but nice to put some bigger rounds down range too. Again, thanks to all for the responses!!
 
m102404 said:
Re. the STATT/LTATT, clubs, etc....I won't comment on the "technically" this or that. But I just went through the process and while I can't say it's the same for every club, here's what it was for me.
* Already had my RPAL....
1. Joined Silverdale...paid, took little club orientation same day, got membership card...all done same day.
2. Bought a pistol...paid for it, went home, hid the bill from my wife, waited for STATT. Pistol stays at store...store will call when they have STATT.
3. A week later got the Registration cert for the pistol in the mail from the CFO. Says I own model ###x serial number yyyyy
4. About a week later, maybe a bit more, I get a call from the store saying that the STATT is here and I can come get the pistol....take reg cert, RPAL with me and go get pistol. Take pistol straight home...lock it up appropriately. *Make sure you have a trigger lock (or some other pistol disabling device) and a lock for the pistol case!!! I was lucky that I had some extras in my range bag....if you have pistol ammo that needs to be locked separately from pistol. STATT is now useless...it does not permit anything else and pistol must stay in the residence that is listed.
5. Sign up and wait for club ATT course.
6. Take course (half day), notify that I have a restricted pistol already (they put in the LTATT application next business day if you do...otherwise you have to tell them when you have one and then they'll put in your app) and do first probation shoot (4 required)
7. Do other probation shoots...once the shoots are finished the club will give you your ATT if it has arrived (otherwise wait)
8. Club gets LTATT...lets you know
9. You're good to go back and forth to that club...or any other CFO approved restricted range that you have an "invite" to (an invite can be a letter printed from that other club's website, it can be an e-mail from a member saying 'come shoot with me', it can be the competition schedule for IPSC/IPDA matches, etc...)

Time elapsed for #2-4...about 3 weeks.
Time elapsed for #6-9...about 4 weeks.

Compare all that to buying/shooting a non-restricted rifle.
1. Walk into store...buy SKS and crate of ammo...hide bills from wife
2. Go to club
3. Shoot
4. Go back to store to buy more cleaning stuff, ammo, another rifle, etc....LOL

My understanding is this (at least for those clubs I've looked at)...If you are a member of a second (or third/etc..) range you may be required to do their ATT course and to do their probation shoots. They may waive some or all parts of that on a case by case basis....dunno, ask them.

Your LTATT will have a "home range" on it. It will only have one. If you want to make your home range one other than whats on it, you need to have the CFO make that change (via whatever paperwork required). Your LTATT is valid until your RPAL expires (at least that's what mine says). Both must be renewed.

Your club (at least Silverdale does this) will renew your LTATT for you when the date is coming up...you need to renew your RPAL. If you are not a "member in good standing" (i.e. haven't paid up, etc...) then they will notify the CFO and have your LTATT canceled. I believe that club may give you a 2 month grace period to settle up...but dunno, ask your club for specifics.

Hope that helps
Click to expand...

And because I can't resist poking a stick...


* Already had my RPAL....
1. Joined Saskatoon Wildlife Federation...paid, took a walkaround same day, got membership card...all done same day.
2. Bought a pistol online...paid for it, hid the bill from my wife, Pistol ships from store when transfer complete.
3. Pistol shows up, my (unlicensed) wife signs for it. I phone CFO for LTATT, fax in membership card.
4. CFO emails LTATT after I fax my club membership.
5. No club ATT course required.
6. Took pistol to plinkers night same night.
7. You're good to go back and forth to that club...or any other CFO approved restricted range in Sasktchewan, or any gunsmith, or any border crossing.


Time elapsed for 1-3, 3 days.
Time elapsed for 4, 15 minutes.

Total time - 3 days.

Yay Saskatchewan!!


:)
 
just to relate and compare experiences.
Recently received Rpal,-----Went window shopping
Next day wife bought me range membership for birthday :)
Next day went back to range, bought cz75 shadow 9mm on the spot and went shooting it :))while paperwork being done.Range held gun for me overnight.
Next day sent email to CFO office with pal# ,Transfer refrence # scan of membership and a brief description.
3 hours later I had email with 3 pdf documents STATT,LTATT ,reg transfer I went there showed the documents on the smart phone, picked it up and went home.
Priceless. (lol I didn't tell the wife either untill I got it home.)
LTATT good for any range gunsmith in Alberta or boarder crossing.
What is a ATT club course? I dont understand.
 
1911 and Single Action Army revolvers have been copied for quite a while, and some of the copies are better than the originals.

also, there are a few copies of the Beretta 92 series of pistols. The Turkish copy is made by a company called Girsan and they are excellent. In some ways better than the Beretta(the Beretta people will not agree with that of course), in the fit and finish department.
 
LOL w/ the guys out west...man, that's sweet. I cannot disagree that it's a lot of hubbub to go through...bleh. As noted in my post...not speaking to the technicalities of what's possible, just what worked for me here. If there's any discrepancy, contact the CFO/your club/etc...

@ the Q about "club ATT course"...I hope I haven't confused anyone/anything. I do not mean that to represent that the club issues any sort of ATT/STATT/LTATT or legally bearing transport certificate. I meant "club ATT course" as to mean the a course provided by/at/for the club that they require you to do (for whatever reasons) as part of them ok'ing you to shoot restricted at their club and for them to process your LTATT. It's basically a restricted firearms knowledge/safety/range-procedure course...and tied to a set of probationary shoots with one of their RSO guys. While you may be able to obtain/process an LTATT without one, most every one of the clubs around here seem to work that way. Might be regulations, insurance, private policy, business model...dunno.

Since I saw he was in Hamilton and likely to go through a similar experience.
 
Check out Hickock45s video on the Ruger SR9c - he is a Glock fan and he says that the stock SR9 trigger feels like a tuned Glock. In Canada - SR9 start at $500! And in my opinion are much better looking than Glocks. He opened the Ruger up and the slide and the sear mechanism looked exactly like my G34.

I have owned 2 Norc 1911s and they were ugly and gross but at least you could use it as a hammer too. After a little trigger job, they weren't all that bad for the money. The 870 clone is much better but it's an easy design to copy.
 
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