Question about stock & the barrel and resulting grouping, and suggestion on how to improve them

DumduminMud

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I own a Savage Axis; and it advertised free floated barrel, but the gap between barrel and the stock says other wise; it causes the paper to bind up mid way between the fore end of the stock and the action end of the stock, and the barrel is leaning towards one side of the stock and having a bigger and more visible gap, which is concerning.
The paper sliding under the barrel also confirms the stock is leaning towards one side as paper is binding more easily on that side.
I'm shooting 223 and I was having trouble getting it to go under 1'' grouping at 100 yard (which should be like laser beam, or near laser beam assuming I have followed all the necessary advices, which you're welcomed to give, I'm listening), hence why I'm having all the questions.
Should I use heavier bullet as it does seem to function better than the lighter ones, and is there anything else I should be aware of?
No, the action/stock screw is not torqued to spec I don't own a torque screwdriver it was torqued until it causes to paper to slightly bind up when sliding, then loosened a bit.
Yes, I used shooting bag (courtesy to another Shooter that lended it to me, will be my next major purchase);
Yes, I swithced ammo mid way (labelled them on the pic, but its same brand, albeit with differnt weight. FMJ at 55gr, HPBT at 69 grain);
Yes the scope is not fully zero'ed in yet as I'm questionining my own shooting ability (which I should always remains doubtful lolz)
Yes, I will be replacing the bipod down the line
 

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If paper won't slide easily between the stock and the barrel, then you need to solve that problem first.

Loosen the stock, push it side to side to get the barrel in the middle and then retighten the stock. Hopefully that will solve the issue. If not then you need to look at bedding the stock.
 
If paper won't slide easily between the stock and the barrel, then you need to solve that problem first.

Loosen the stock, push it side to side to get the barrel in the middle and then retighten the stock. Hopefully that will solve the issue. If not then you need to look at bedding the stock.
I’ve tried that, and unfortunately the barrel is not in the mood to change its position relative to the stock. Should I look to get a bedding job done on it?
What I’m fearing with that is that I’ll have to fill down some of the ridge to make it fit, at which point it might be more economical to get a chassis compared to the hassle of work involved.
 
Wrap some 80 grit sandpaper around a wooden dowel or broomstick and sand out the high spots in the barrel channel. It will take you longer to disassemble and reassemble than it will to do the job. Try a 4 inch square black aiming mark on white paper and shoot at the corners. Try different ammo. That's where I would start. After that I would look at bedding.
 
had a similar problem with my stevens 200. Adjusting and re-tightening bolts didnt work. Just dremeled away abit of material on the contacting side, and also at the very front that was touching the bottom of the barrel.
 
As suggested sandpaper the channel out more, favouring the side that was tighter and make sure you have enough clearance to slide a thicker business card without touching. Barrels and stocks ‘flex’ as the rifle is fired and may still ‘bump’ together if you don’t have enough separation. For the amount of money invested in a Savage this could be a quick cheap fix whereas a chassis will cost you more than you paid for the rifle. The bipod can also change the harmonics of the overall system, helping or hurting accuracy if the stock isn’t rigid enough.
 
Some thoughts...
What is the actual capability of the rifle? Some shoot better than others. Is the rifle a sound sub-minute performer?
Can you consistently shoot sub-minute with a rifle capable of sub-minute performance?
Forget FMJ ball for precision. Performance of a rifle can vary with different cartridges. That S&B Match might or might not be the best performer in your rifle. That one group is about a minute. Might or might not be representative.
With bipod and toe bag, sub-minute performance is possible, if the rifle, ammunition and shooter are capable. Maynard's suggestion to shoot at the corners of a black square is a sound one, as is the suggestion to try different ammunition. A precise, repeatable sight picture is easy to get, shooting at the corners of the square.
Pressure from the bipod can affect the forend and barrel contact. Plastic forends flex. Are you shooting with the bipod in "neutral" or are you trying to preload it?
By all means, sand out the channel to insure clearance.
 
Does it use "bedding blocks" or "pillars" I'm guessing that stock might have a considerable amount of "flex" in it, so therefore you may need alot more room in the barrel channel, also if you are shooting off a bipod that can put more pressure in that area. A word of advice, most people don't realize how important the torque value is on the action screws, even 15in pounds under or over, can result in a POA-POI shift.

Try shooting it supported near the mag well on a bag and see how it groups? you may have to replace the stock? or at least send it back to have it serviced?
 
Unfortunately 'send it back' is usually not good advice for a Savage due to border issues and the time the gun will be 'away'. Unless you don't mind a wait, I'd look at 'fixing it' yourself with some of the suggestions. As for 'centering' the barrel, did you really loosen the action screws enough? Hard to believe it won't move if they are loose. And 'supporting' the barrel in the correct position while you re-tighten them is critical, as is the correct torque like mildot said. You may need to shim the action to 'align' it a bit?
Polishing the internal bits of the action can reduce the trigger-pull, also replacing the 'safety-blade spring' with a proper sized bit of a lighter spring (try part of a bic-pen spring) will reduce the pull a # or so. And Savage makes a 'Varmint' Trigger spring if you can access one from the USA. (a CDN gunsmith may have one, too)
And Tiriacs's point about ammo is well take, too. That S&B may not 'be the one' for your rifle. I've found Hornady Superformance in 73g or 77g work well in my 223-Ruger American Standard, going sub-moa if I'm careful. You had nearly MOA in that upper-left group.
There are lots of possible mods to improve this rifle, if you have the time and inclination.
 
Thanks for all the reply and suggestions!
Wrap some 80 grit sandpaper around a wooden dowel or broomstick and sand out the high spots in the barrel channel. It will take you longer to disassemble and reassemble than it will to do the job. Try a 4 inch square black aiming mark on white paper and shoot at the corners. Try different ammo. That's where I would start. After that I would look at bedding.
had a similar problem with my stevens 200. Adjusting and re-tightening bolts didnt work. Just dremeled away abit of material on the contacting side, and also at the very front that was touching the bottom of the barrel.
For the channel ,sand paper wrapped around a deep socket will make it happy.
As suggested sandpaper the channel out more, favouring the side that was tighter and make sure you have enough clearance to slide a thicker business card without touching. Barrels and stocks ‘flex’ as the rifle is fired and may still ‘bump’ together if you don’t have enough separation. For the amount of money invested in a Savage this could be a quick cheap fix whereas a chassis will cost you more than you paid for the rifle. The bipod can also change the harmonics of the overall system, helping or hurting accuracy if the stock isn’t rigid enough.
I have tried removing a bit of material by scraping with Xacto Knife, However It seesm like I haven't removed enough material.
The stock indeed has a lot of protrusion on the infill support, which I've cut and sanded some away, but not all of them yet. Guess that's result of injection molding.
While paper now pass through easier it is still not the "No resistance" like there's nothing there, but more of a "We're in close contact but not quite close enough, and just wide enough for a paper to barely glide through", ie the width you'd typically find CW Paddle contact distance at.
Now the Queston is should I keep going or should I stop? From reading all the comment it says I should Keep going until a paper will slide without any issue and there shouldn't be any "stickiness" in moving the paper
What’s the trigger pull like?
I have a 243 and the pull weight was ridiculously heavy, lightened it up and the groups were sub moa after that and consistent
Trigger pull was set to lightest allowable by the AccuTrigger, it still felt heavy compared to the other gun I got but I have no way of quantifying it.
Some thoughts...
What is the actual capability of the rifle? Some shoot better than others. Is the rifle a sound sub-minute performer?
Can you consistently shoot sub-minute with a rifle capable of sub-minute performance?
Forget FMJ ball for precision. Performance of a rifle can vary with different cartridges. That S&B Match might or might not be the best performer in your rifle. That one group is about a minute. Might or might not be representative.
With bipod and toe bag, sub-minute performance is possible, if the rifle, ammunition and shooter are capable. Maynard's suggestion to shoot at the corners of a black square is a sound one, as is the suggestion to try different ammunition. A precise, repeatable sight picture is easy to get, shooting at the corners of the square.
Pressure from the bipod can affect the forend and barrel contact. Plastic forends flex. Are you shooting with the bipod in "neutral" or are you trying to preload it?
By all means, sand out the channel to insure clearance.
Capability of the rifle I'd say It should out shoot me. I barely have any experience with centerfire benchrest, and with Rimfire at 20 Yd prone I shoot 2MOA group with Canadian Match.
Consistency maybe not so much, I typically shoot 1'' group @ 100yd with my other rifle that is capable of subMOA, especially when in a rest.
Maybe that's due to the cartridge, 6.5CM is more laser beam than .223 probabaly.
so far the S&B HPBT is more consistent than the S&B FMJ stuff, but I should probabaly buy a bit more brand and try them each out.
For the bipod, I shoot by leaning into it slightly, maybe in that sense I preloaded bipod? It does make my shooting more consistent when I try to do that, so I'm not sure.
I'll take the suggestion for the Black square corner and use that next time I'm on range.
Does it use "bedding blocks" or "pillars" I'm guessing that stock might have a considerable amount of "flex" in it, so therefore you may need alot more room in the barrel channel, also if you are shooting off a bipod that can put more pressure in that area. A word of advice, most people don't realize how important the torque value is on the action screws, even 15in pounds under or over, can result in a POA-POI shift.

Try shooting it supported near the mag well on a bag and see how it groups? you may have to replace the stock? or at least send it back to have it serviced?
It uses neither bedding block nore pillar, I believe for Savage's Axis II as it is a budget rifle, after all.
For Torque, is there an easier way other than using a Torque screwdriver? I usually tighten to finger tight using long end, than give it a push from 3 o clock until it locks up. Bottom line is I try to keep 2 screw consistently torqued, but maybe far from the accurate/target torque.
And as of Stock, like Buck1950 have said; the send it back probabaly means I'll be out one less rifle(stirkethrough: toy) to use with cheaper and more affordable ammo as I have 223 as cheap as $.70 a round, but 6.5CM will start $2 a shot minimum.
As of suggestion for supporting near the mag well: I guess I'll try to add another support bag towards the front. the mag doesn't extend outward and instead sits flush with the bottom of the stock.
Unfortunately 'send it back' is usually not good advice for a Savage due to border issues and the time the gun will be 'away'. Unless you don't mind a wait, I'd look at 'fixing it' yourself with some of the suggestions. As for 'centering' the barrel, did you really loosen the action screws enough? Hard to believe it won't move if they are loose. And 'supporting' the barrel in the correct position while you re-tighten them is critical, as is the correct torque like mildot said. You may need to shim the action to 'align' it a bit?
Polishing the internal bits of the action can reduce the trigger-pull, also replacing the 'safety-blade spring' with a proper sized bit of a lighter spring (try part of a bic-pen spring) will reduce the pull a # or so. And Savage makes a 'Varmint' Trigger spring if you can access one from the USA. (a CDN gunsmith may have one, too)
And Tiriacs's point about ammo is well take, too. That S&B may not 'be the one' for your rifle. I've found Hornady Superformance in 73g or 77g work well in my 223-Ruger American Standard, going sub-moa if I'm careful. You had nearly MOA in that upper-left group.
There are lots of possible mods to improve this rifle, if you have the time and inclination.
Shimming the action seems like a more reasonable result, I'd say. I just need to add a bit of material to the left of the action and in theory that will offset the barrel by enough it will be free floating.
I guess I'll try Hornady Superformance; however the barrel is 1:9 twist, which seems a bit low for the heavier stuff. Still Will try that When my wallet spares it.
 
It uses neither bedding block nore pillar, I believe for Savage's Axis II as it is a budget rifle, after all.
For Torque, is there an easier way other than using a Torque screwdriver? I usually tighten to finger tight using long end, than give it a push from 3 o clock until it locks up. Bottom line is I try to keep 2 screw consistently torqued, but maybe far from the accurate/target torque.
And as of Stock, like Buck1950 have said; the send it back probabaly means I'll be out one less rifle(stirkethrough: toy) to use with cheaper and more affordable ammo as I have 223 as cheap as $.70 a round, but 6.5CM will start $2 a shot minimum.
As of suggestion for supporting near the mag well: I guess I'll try to add another support bag towards the front. the mag doesn't extend outward and instead sits flush with the bottom of the stock.

OK, so I watched a video on the "take down" of this rifle, this is a tough one because like you said no bedding block or pillars? so you have some options?
One is a new stock?
Two is to bed the action, I'm guessing you can't do that? unless you want to try?
Third, buy a torque wrench screwdriver, price these days are modest, Real Avid comes to mind etc.

Savage have come along way, they make good rifles, IIRC, however without some pillars or a bedding blocks? it's tough to get repeatability?
Torquing might help? but ultimately it boils down to "bullets, barrels and bedding"

If you like shooting the rifle than bedding is the least expensive, the next for me would be a new stock.
 
Keep going with the sanding. Use a round object wrapped by sandpaper, as suggested by others above. Apply the most pressure to where it is touching. Get clearance.
Your 1:9 will shoot up to 75gr bullets. Keep sanding the barrel channel, most of my target rifles have about 1/4" clearance around the barrels.
Thank you for the number! that 1/4'' is probabaly what gives me confidence in removing material; I checked with Bergara's rifle and it indeed is true free float, and probably has that 1/4'' gap between the stock and the barrel. Will keep sanding.


OK, so I watched a video on the "take down" of this rifle, this is a tough one because like you said no bedding block or pillars? so you have some options?
One is a new stock?
Two is to bed the action, I'm guessing you can't do that? unless you want to try?
Third, buy a torque wrench screwdriver, price these days are modest, Real Avid comes to mind etc.

Savage have come along way, they make good rifles, IIRC, however without some pillars or a bedding blocks? it's tough to get repeatability?
Torquing might help? but ultimately it boils down to "bullets, barrels and bedding"

If you like shooting the rifle than bedding is the least expensive, the next for me would be a new stock.
Interestingly Princess Auto near where I live happens to have a set of Torque Screwdriver for sale at about 90 (sans tax of course) and happens to includes all the bit, so maybe I'll give that a shot. Real avid is About 110; maybe I haven't looked hard enough.
And indeed it's not like Savage is incapable of making good stock; their 64 Precision's stock features a better free floated barrel than the Axis II; Granted there may be more money devoted to the stock for 22lr than it is to a 223 bolt gun.
Bedding wise Probabaly will need to source the release agent; I saw people using JB weld as bedding agent, but I would like to sand off stock first, and then proceed to bedding if it still won't work. saves the hassel and if i wanted to bed then sanding is pre-req step anyway.
Thanks for the suggestion!
 
Thank you for the number! that 1/4'' is probabaly what gives me confidence in removing material; I checked with Bergara's rifle and it indeed is true free float, and probably has that 1/4'' gap between the stock and the barrel. Will keep sanding.



Interestingly Princess Auto near where I live happens to have a set of Torque Screwdriver for sale at about 90 (sans tax of course) and happens to includes all the bit, so maybe I'll give that a shot. Real avid is About 110; maybe I haven't looked hard enough.
And indeed it's not like Savage is incapable of making good stock; their 64 Precision's stock features a better free floated barrel than the Axis II; Granted there may be more money devoted to the stock for 22lr than it is to a 223 bolt gun.
Bedding wise Probabaly will need to source the release agent; I saw people using JB weld as bedding agent, but I would like to sand off stock first, and then proceed to bedding if it still won't work. saves the hassel and if i wanted to bed then sanding is pre-req step anyway.
Thanks for the suggestion!

I always make it a habit of "investing" in the best tools I can afford, just make sure to test the torque driver & make sure it's pretty close to what you want value wise.

I've done bedding and it's not a operation for the faint of heart or for first timers IMO? but you have to start somewhere, I've used MarineTex and it's pretty well received in gunsmithing circles, for a release agent most use shoe polish?

Depending on where you live? you could ask Casey @ TacOrd if he would do it? and at least get a price?

BTW without adding pillars or a bedding block, even with bedding you might be “swimming upstream” on this, however it’s worth a try.

I'm adding this "anecdotally" and I've only had a conversation with a colleague that did/used this? Depending on how much you remove the action from the stock? you could use some silicon in the barrel channel and maybe around the action, again I've never done this and I would think that it wouldn't be rigid enough, but in smaller calibres (22lr) and softer shooting rifles it may add some benefit. If it didn't work out? you could remove it & clean the stock without too much grief, that's not the case with MarineTex. Good Luck

Remember in "bedding" prep is everything, so make sure you watch a few good videos and do several "rehearsals" to make sure you get everything in the correct place/order and you have everything you need for installation and clean up OK.
 
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evertything is on youtube.
Bedding with JB weld and pam spray as release agent, or shoe polish isnt "that" hard. and very inexpensive.
I did my stevens 200 plastic stock. Had to apply 2 times, first time was pillar/stock bolts, second was recoil lug.
Preparation is key though.
 
Well - OP needs to set a list of priorities:

1) Increase the clearance in the barrel channel to pass a business card. Otherwise, dont worry about the barrel being off center.
2) Try different types of ammo. Reloaders have the advantage here. Rifles will typically "tune" to a specific bullet weight, so its worth starting here. Secondly, the quality of the bullet matters, cheap boat-tails are not known for accuracy - try flat base, or match grade bullets/cartridges.
3) Stock bolts should snug up quickly (ie 1/4 turn). If they dont, then the action is poorly mated to the stock. Since the stock is injection moulded, it is likely dimensionally correct, making bedding a low priority unless proved otherwise.
4) Most of us have a feel for torque, 30 - 40 in lbs is moderately tight using a standard screwdriver.
5) Shooting better than 1 MOA gets exponentially more difficult. At some point down the road, when you've got some confidence in the rifle/load, let someone thats capable shoot the rifle.
 
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Well - OP needs to set a list of priorities:

1) Increase the clearance in the barrel channel to pass a business card. Otherwise, dont worry about the barrel being off center.
2) Try different types of ammo. Reloaders have the advantage here. Rifles will typically "tune" to a specific bullet weight, so its worth starting here. Secondly, the quality of the bullet matters, cheap boat-tails are not known for accuracy - try flat base, or match grade bullets/cartridges.
3) Stock bolts should snug up quickly (ie 1/4 turn). If they dont, then the action is poorly mated to the stock. Since the stock is injection moulded, it is likely dimensionally correct, making bedding a low priority unless proved otherwise.
4) Most of us have a feel for torque, 30 - 40 in lbs is moderately tight using a standard screwdriver.
5) Shooting better than 1 MOA gets exponentially more difficult. At some point down the road, when you've got some confidence in the rifle/load, let someone thats capable shoot the rifle.
Hi, thank you for your list of suggestive and detailed input, and thank you for the list of priorities:
currently have done 1) and 3); sanded it down further and now fits 80gsm paper no issue; but judging by your suggestion i should keep going further; ie it currently pass the paper slip test, but probabaly could get a little bit more.
As of 3), I significantly lightened the torque and now it's not much more than finger tight as per "modereately tight" suggested in 4) and it inproved drastically. probably will try to find a local that is willing to lend me a torque screwdriver (or cave in, really, and buy the whole trio of Wera Torque Wrench ($350+)) as I just need to mount it once, until maybe like MDT idk, goes on sale.
Working out solution to try 2 and 5; probabaly will buy off the shelf match ammo; got recommanded for plastic tip match ammo so might go and try to find it; reloading is out of equation due to lack of space (and money, the real concern here). So far Heavier bullet has shot better, so will try to source the 70+ grain ammo as suggested; but I live in the place that only sales overpriced 22lr or drive over 1 hour to middle of nowhere and get a moderate selection, so that'll have to wait. As of people more capable than me? More range trip and

Bedding Wise suggestion taken in are prepping is key and number 1 item that affect final perfomance of bedding
To the person suggested Getting into contact with TacOrd, It's not that I don't trust them; they probablay have a very long lead time. While the loca gunsmith here have a good reputation he's got weird operating hour, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Taking adjusted(no, not adjusted, really it is sanded. I wish CGN has strike through line function) Gun to range tomorrow, will report back in and see if I need more sanding.
 
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