Question concerning use of Cover

[Jarlath]

Hey all you DPA guys.
Now I have a question in regards to the use of cover in matches.

I'll give my take on it and just want some clarification as I did some re-reading and found zero notes in regards to this.

In Defensive Pistol shooting (IDPA, CDP, ODPL, whatever...)
When an individual moves to a cover position and engages targets while outside of cover (aka more than 50% upper body exposed and/or legs showing), as an RSO I yell a single warning of cover and they need to correct themselves fast (a second or two) or I issue a procedural. I personally only ever call cover once per stage (not per shooting position) and continue to issue cover infractions as the occur per shooting position.

I actually had someone give me flak for not verbally warning cover per position. Now IMHO you get a single warning as most competitors SHOULD know better on the use of cover. In practice/training I'll yell at you every time and still assess you procedurals as it is training.

Am I in the right here? Otherwise I could see gamers abusing this rule.
I yell "Cover" and they take a shot or two before complying within a second or two at every new shooting position.

 

[667]

I'd give the benefit of doubt to the shooter and give a 'cover' warning at each position they're screwing up... Who knows, different shaped/types of pieces of cover might confuse some people.
A far as the 50% rule... It can be difficult to fairly judge. What if the shooter has an Enormous head. but a tiny ass?
I mean... 'he peeks out to take a look at targets, his 50% is gonna be different than a shooter with a tiny head and a huge ass.
I keep it simple. As long as the shooter's feet are behind the cover I don't care how far he/she leans out to take shots.

A couple other points for some RO's to concider... A shooter doesn't need to be right up against a piece of cover to be effectively "behind cover". You can be waaaayyy back behind that barricade/tree/whatever.. take your shots and still be almost invisable to the hostiles. Perhaps mor so.
Oh... and people who shoot over cover (barrels, furniture etc) should earn proceedurals.

 

[Westicle]

cover warning once, if he ignores the cover warning and fires the gun anyway then he gets a procedural.

the problem with most things right now is the barrels are hard to tell if cover is being used, they should do away with barrels completly and use a low baricade wall.

 

[John in B.C.]

667 said "Oh... and people who shoot over cover (barrels, furniture etc) should earn proceedurals."

Newbie here and I am wondering if you are serious and if so why the procedural???

Like I said - newbie to IDPA - so I'm just wondering

John

 

[raks]

In my understanding, the cover command should be used every time a competitor is not using cover properly. As long as they correct their behaviour after the command is issued no procedural applies. Only one procedural is issued per type of infraction (IDPA rules, page 15, PP 1). In a COF with 3 positions using cover you can only issue a maximum of one procedural for failing to use cover.

If you're worried about gamers then its time for a FTDR penalty (20 second penalty) . Some IDPA gurus believe that FTDR is not used enough.

667 said "Oh... and people who shoot over cover (barrels, furniture etc) should earn proceedurals."

Newbie here and I am wondering if you are serious and if so why the procedural???

Like I said - newbie to IDPA - so I'm just wondering

John

The rules require cover to be used if it is available. A procedural penalty (3 seconds) is applied if cover is not used.

In many scenarios, shooting over low cover (like a barrel) will expose you to multiple threats. This is bad for a number of reasons and so the 'correct' usage would be to slice the pie using the barrel as low cover - allowing the competitor to see and shoot only one target at a time.

IMO the match director or stage designer should specify how the piece of cover is to be used and treat everyone fairly.

I saw a good adaptation in some photo the other day (maybe one of dragoons pics?) there was a horizontal wood beam screwed to the top of a barrel forcing competitors to shoot below the beam and thus using the cover 'correctly'.

 

[TDC]

Will there be someone yelling "cover" in the real world? I think not. Personally I would never call it and penalize the shooter for every infraction.

TDC

 

[Jarlath]

cover warning once, if he ignores the cover warning and fires the gun anyway then he gets a procedural.

the problem with most things right now is the barrels are hard to tell if cover is being used, they should do away with barrels completly and use a low baricade wall.

When we run matches it isn't that much of an issue. We have two RSO's for every competitor.

Primary RSO watching the competitor's hands and firearms control/safety (plus protrusion beyond cover).

Secondary RSO is 2-3 meters behind the competitor watching for cover violations, order of target engagement etc...

(We usually have a Tertiary RSO watching behind the line for idiocy and ghosters..)

 

[raks]

Will there be someone yelling "cover" in the real world? I think not.

Where are there 50 gallon drums and bianchi barricades lying around in the 'real world?'

This is still a game and every SO's definition of cover is going to be somewhat subjective.

The SO instructions from IDPA HQ seemed pretty clear in the video I watched: SO's are not to issue penalties unless the cover command has been given and not complied with.

How is it done at official IDPA matches??

 

[bersmith]

I believe that an RSO should yell cover for each infraction of the failure to use cover. You give one warning and then give the procedural. The weight is on the RSO to put himself in a position fast enough to be able to call the 50% rule. I then give a second warning at the same shooting position and then if they don't get behind cover they get a FTDR penalty.
The RSO must always be able to get behind the shooter and witness the infraction of the rule. He has to be quick enough and have enough volume in his commands that the shooter can hear him. The fact that your loud enough that other shooter hear you will back you up later, if the shooter complains he didn't hear. THe other shooters will claim they heard you and they were further away.

 

[bclinehand]

If the RO calls "cover" and the shooter does not correct his position prior to firing ,the procedural penalty for cover is applied .....that said if the RO sees that the shooter is exposed and does not have time to call "cover" prior to the shot being fired the penalty still applies.
In effect the maintaining of proper body position is the shooters responsibility and the "cover " command by the RO is not required to incur the penalty

 

[Words Twice]

From the IDPA rule book. http://www.idpa.com/Documents/IDPARuleBook2005.pdf

page 15, PP 1. B. Procedural Error
"... Only one (1) PE is assessed for each type of infraction in a string of fire."

With this in mind, I would warn the shooter at every shooting position. This warning will set the stage for a FTDR penalty if necessary.

page 15, PC 1. D. 2. FTDR examples
"Purposely committing a procedural error because your score will be better even with the penalty.

page 43, Appendix 3 - Cover
"... safety officers who observe a shooter not using cover properly should shout the command "COVER". The shooter should immediately correct his use of cover. IDPA understands many shooters are often too fast in engaging targets for the SO to be able to warn the shooter in time. Therefore, if the safety officer did not have the time or opportunity to yell "COVER" before the shooter engaged targets without using cover properly, the shooter still earns a procedural error."

 

[Westicle]

all that being said the point of idpa is to have fun and for the SO's to not be range nazi's.... the SO has to deal evenly and fairly with all contestant's.

stop worrying about the "letter" of the law and go out and shoot and have fun, if the SO calls you on it make sure your feet are 100% behind and that 50% of your body is behind cover, if the guy keeps yelling cover and you keep moving your body but not your feet then it is up to you to clue in that your feet are out of cover. or vice versa.

shoot shoot shoot have fun and play within the rules, IDPA is about the competitiors trying to stay within the rules, not look for grey areas, as long as you participate in the spirit of the sport all is good.

 

[TDC]

Where are there 50 gallon drums and bianchi barricades lying around in the 'real world?'

This is still a game and every SO's definition of cover is going to be somewhat subjective.

The SO instructions from IDPA HQ seemed pretty clear in the video I watched: SO's are not to issue penalties unless the cover command has been given and not complied with.

How is it done at official IDPA matches??

50 Gallon drums represent real world cover. An RO/RSO represents your mother. Which will more than likely not be present when sugar goes to sh*t. IDPA was founded as a fun activity for CCW permit holders to sharpen their skills. Now it seems it has gone 180 degrees and is all about fun and ###ming rather than practical skills. Much the same way IPSC has gone...

Personally I think the change is due to profits being made in the shooting sports accessory market coupled with a whole lot of "we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings by scoring them too low" type of attitude.

I could be wrong, but I thought IDPA was supposed to be an easy scoring no BS discipline that was intended to challenge and imrpove ones skills.

TDC

 

[Dragoon]

TDC, have you ever competed in an IDPA match? If not, you should try it before berating it. Our next match will be on Sunday, May 25th at the MVMA range west of Olds. You're more than welcome to come out and "challenge and improve your skills".

 

[raks]

... 180 degrees and is all about fun and ###ming rather than practical skills...

Nice.

You may not agree, but IDPA was also founded to be "geared toward the new or average shooter, yet is fun, challenging and rewarding for the experienced shooter."

IMO, many of the range commands serve to 'coach' new or average shooters, correcting 'bad' behaviours and reminding them of the fundamentals of 'combat' shooting. In the same way, the FTDR serves as a way of keeping gamers inline, if you don't like how someone is playing the game on your range let them know that you'll issue a FTDR every time they push the envelope.

In the end it is still a game that "simulates self-defense scenarios and real life encounters"

 

[TDC]

I have nothing against the sport. Its some of the ridiculous rules and bickering that occurs at matches that I don't care for. I see nothing wrong with aiding new shooters and coaching, so long as its requested and isn't an unfair advantage for the competitor.

Dragoon,

I have competed in IDPA type events, although not officially sanctioned. The shoots are fun, no doubt. I don't compete to win, I compete to improve my skills, which often means taking penalties and/or slower times. To compete with those who play to win often includes engaging in actions that otherwise are unsound. For the purpose of the sport its a non issue. From a self defense standpoint it invites bad habits.

TDC

 

[Westicle]

TDC why so down, who cares how other's shoot.... you seem to be the one concerned how you score. IDPA is not meant to be a training ground, it is meant to be an activity and sport where like minded people can get together and enjoy shooting.

yes there is scoring and yes if you really want to compete then great, you will win a $.12 piece of paper or a $5 trophy.

IF there are any guns or other prizes they are awarded via draw.... so to "cheat" or try to play into the grey areas of the sport make no sense. WOW look at me with my $.12 piece of paper or a $5 trophy.

Lighten up.... if the SO is being a weiner bring it to the attention of the match director, but frankly I doubt that is the case.... if a competitor does not heed a cover, muzzle or finger call then they deserve the procedural.

 

[667]

667 said "Oh... and people who shoot over cover (barrels, furniture etc) should earn proceedurals."

Newbie here and I am wondering if you are serious and if so why the procedural???

Like I said - newbie to IDPA - so I'm just wondering

John

'Just a pet peeve of mine... I always tell squads up front as part of the stage briefing if shooting 'over' low cover is to be tolerated.