question for reloading experts.
- Thread starter Hellspawn717
- Start date
They all go by the same standards, as set by the Sporting Arms And Ammunition Manufacturers Institute, SAAMI.
This organization has deemed the pressures they state will be safe in any rifle of the designated calibre, which is in good condition.
Obviously, no loading company, nor any firm printing loading manuals, would give a load that sent pressures above these designated standards for top pressure.
"...went lowest to be safe..." Starting loads aren't any safer than max loads. You have to work up the load.
You may want to think about using a heavier bullet. 123 and 125 grain bullets are made for the 7.62 x 39. The 7.62 x 54R typically uses 150 plus grain bullets. Using the lighter bullet is in no way unsafe though. Your rifle may just not like 'em.
Max loads are not factory. Factory ammo is loaded to give specific velocity and pressures.
You may want to think about using a heavier bullet. 123 and 125 grain bullets are made for the 7.62 x 39. The 7.62 x 54R typically uses 150 plus grain bullets. Using the lighter bullet is in no way unsafe though. Your rifle may just not like 'em.
Max loads are not factory. Factory ammo is loaded to give specific velocity and pressures.
"Factory ammo is loaded to give specific velocity and pressures."
So are the loading charts in the manuals.
The point is, SAAMI sets the upper pressure limits they can use, be it factory loadings or reloading charts and the limit is the same for either way of making ammo.
So are the loading charts in the manuals.
The point is, SAAMI sets the upper pressure limits they can use, be it factory loadings or reloading charts and the limit is the same for either way of making ammo.
Another lesson you are about to get, when you buy your next batch of components, is that all batches are not exactly alike. It makes good sense, once you've established the load and components, your going to settle on to buy large quantities.
Larger tubs of powder, like the 8lb tubs, 1000 primers at a time, 1000 bullets at a time. Don't buy a buch of 1lb tubs of powder, unless they are from the same lot. The same goes for primers and bullets. Not all lots are created equal is a good thing to remember. If you start out with different lots, frequently, you will be frequently testing your loads, instead of having confidence in what you have at hand. If you can't get the larger tubs, pour all of the powder into one large container and blend them together. Please, don't mix up different powders, the results will be less than exhilerating.
Buying in bulk, will save money as well. Dealers get a better deal for volume and pass on the savings. If they don't, try another dealer. I haven't come across one that hasn't though.
stubblejumper, factory loads, can and do change, from one lot to the next. It isn't uncommon for factories to change powders, or powder lots from one batch of ammunition to the next. The same goes for primers and bullets. They usually go with the best quality powder in a similar burning range, bullets in the same shape and weight range and similar primers, for the least cost or even availability, in the quantities required at scheduled loading time. Even the brass case, can come from different manufacturers and as with the other components, only has to be manufactured to whatever specifications are agreed upon. Way to many variables to go on blind faith. Then again, there is always some lucky SOB, that has a rifle, that will digest anything put through it, as if it were a special match load, tailored to the rifle. They are few and far between. I have a couple, and no way in hell will they ever be sold.
Larger tubs of powder, like the 8lb tubs, 1000 primers at a time, 1000 bullets at a time. Don't buy a buch of 1lb tubs of powder, unless they are from the same lot. The same goes for primers and bullets. Not all lots are created equal is a good thing to remember. If you start out with different lots, frequently, you will be frequently testing your loads, instead of having confidence in what you have at hand. If you can't get the larger tubs, pour all of the powder into one large container and blend them together. Please, don't mix up different powders, the results will be less than exhilerating.
Buying in bulk, will save money as well. Dealers get a better deal for volume and pass on the savings. If they don't, try another dealer. I haven't come across one that hasn't though.
stubblejumper, factory loads, can and do change, from one lot to the next. It isn't uncommon for factories to change powders, or powder lots from one batch of ammunition to the next. The same goes for primers and bullets. They usually go with the best quality powder in a similar burning range, bullets in the same shape and weight range and similar primers, for the least cost or even availability, in the quantities required at scheduled loading time. Even the brass case, can come from different manufacturers and as with the other components, only has to be manufactured to whatever specifications are agreed upon. Way to many variables to go on blind faith. Then again, there is always some lucky SOB, that has a rifle, that will digest anything put through it, as if it were a special match load, tailored to the rifle. They are few and far between. I have a couple, and no way in hell will they ever be sold.
I used to work in an ammo factory (CIL). My job was in R & D and I had to develop hundreds, if not thousands of loads for factory production. This involved testing the brass, primers and bulllets we had with the various powders we had on hand in sufficient quantity for that lot of ammo.
Factory specs are by velocity and require no where near "Maximum" pressure, excpet for a few unusual calibers (7 Rem Mag was one that we had to load fairly hot in those days to meet the velocity objective.) I think just about every caliber we loaded was at least 5,000 psi under Max, and many were about 10,000 psi under max.
No maker wants to use more pressure than necessay to meet the objective. Some rifles develop a lot more pressure than others. We had a lot more powders to chose from than a handloader. There are more powders available, and we had various lots of the same powder, and each lot was a differrent speed.
For shotgun there was not only the challenge of getting the pressure/velocity right, but getting the wad column height correct, too. If we were going to load Red Dot, for example, it came in 4 different speeds, ranging from a fast lot to a slow lot. These came from Hercules as Red Dot 1, Red Dot 2, etc. This allowed us to choose the speed and powder charge that got exactly the wad column height we wanted.
So, in conclusion H4831, Max in the book is not "factory load pressure". It is the Max in their rifle, not yours, and is probably 5 to 10 thousand psi hotter than most factory loads in a SAAMI test barrel.
The exception to this is factory match ammo. It is loaded on the assumption it will be shot in modern rifles in good condition and there is less of a pressure contstraint. One maker told me he would go as high as 57,000 psi in match ammo (Max is 62,000). Most 308 match ammo I have pressure tested runs in the 55,000 to 58,000 psi range, but I did once test a lot of Winchester match ammo that was running 60,000.
Factory specs are by velocity and require no where near "Maximum" pressure, excpet for a few unusual calibers (7 Rem Mag was one that we had to load fairly hot in those days to meet the velocity objective.) I think just about every caliber we loaded was at least 5,000 psi under Max, and many were about 10,000 psi under max.
No maker wants to use more pressure than necessay to meet the objective. Some rifles develop a lot more pressure than others. We had a lot more powders to chose from than a handloader. There are more powders available, and we had various lots of the same powder, and each lot was a differrent speed.
For shotgun there was not only the challenge of getting the pressure/velocity right, but getting the wad column height correct, too. If we were going to load Red Dot, for example, it came in 4 different speeds, ranging from a fast lot to a slow lot. These came from Hercules as Red Dot 1, Red Dot 2, etc. This allowed us to choose the speed and powder charge that got exactly the wad column height we wanted.
So, in conclusion H4831, Max in the book is not "factory load pressure". It is the Max in their rifle, not yours, and is probably 5 to 10 thousand psi hotter than most factory loads in a SAAMI test barrel.
The exception to this is factory match ammo. It is loaded on the assumption it will be shot in modern rifles in good condition and there is less of a pressure contstraint. One maker told me he would go as high as 57,000 psi in match ammo (Max is 62,000). Most 308 match ammo I have pressure tested runs in the 55,000 to 58,000 psi range, but I did once test a lot of Winchester match ammo that was running 60,000.
So, in conclusion H4831, Max in the book is not "factory load pressure". It is the Max in their rifle, not yours, and is probably 5 to 10 thousand psi hotter than most factory loads in a SAAMI test barrel.
Mr. Ganderite, I stand corrected.
Good to hear from someone who really knows.
Mr. Ganderite, I stand corrected.
Good to hear from someone who really knows.
"than most factory loads in a SAAMI test barrel."
This is the problem. SAAMI test barrels are amde to very exacting dimensions. The last ones I used were made by Lija I think.
Factory barrels (and custom barrels, even more so) are made to different dimensions than SAAMI, and factory barrels show a huge variation in dimensions. Take chamber throats, for example. Remington chambers are much deeper than Winchester. Winchester develop more pressure. Barrels vary in bore diameter and goove diameter. They also vary in groove to land width rations. This determines how much metal is displaced when the bullet engages the rifling.
This is why we start low and go from there. I twice have had to start low and then work DOWN.
This is the problem. SAAMI test barrels are amde to very exacting dimensions. The last ones I used were made by Lija I think.
Factory barrels (and custom barrels, even more so) are made to different dimensions than SAAMI, and factory barrels show a huge variation in dimensions. Take chamber throats, for example. Remington chambers are much deeper than Winchester. Winchester develop more pressure. Barrels vary in bore diameter and goove diameter. They also vary in groove to land width rations. This determines how much metal is displaced when the bullet engages the rifling.
This is why we start low and go from there. I twice have had to start low and then work DOWN.
"There is always something new in the business of making ammunition." (Julian S Hatcher)
This thread has been an education for me, at least. Ganderite, I really think you should write a whole bunch of this down. The ammunition-manufacturing business in Canada, for many years, turned out some of the best smallarms ammunition ever made. That it deteriorated after you left is down to your successors not being able to fill your shoes. You have knowledge which should be preserved.
H4831, always good to hear from you. You bring a wealth of hard-won practical experience to bear on the problems. You, too, should do some writing about loading and hunting with the calibres that are no longer much used.
Me, I'm still just trying to turn out a batch of .303 from time to time. I guess it's just as "obsolete" as we are, but it's still fun.
.
This thread has been an education for me, at least. Ganderite, I really think you should write a whole bunch of this down. The ammunition-manufacturing business in Canada, for many years, turned out some of the best smallarms ammunition ever made. That it deteriorated after you left is down to your successors not being able to fill your shoes. You have knowledge which should be preserved.
H4831, always good to hear from you. You bring a wealth of hard-won practical experience to bear on the problems. You, too, should do some writing about loading and hunting with the calibres that are no longer much used.
Me, I'm still just trying to turn out a batch of .303 from time to time. I guess it's just as "obsolete" as we are, but it's still fun.
.
