Question for the .308 gurus.

Hmmm, an extreme spread of 2873-2734 = 139fps, that's quite a bit.

It is possible that your Chrony is giving you erratic readings, particularly with a blue sky (which is much darker than overcast sky). Take the skyscreens (diffusers) with you on your next trip, see if you get better results with them. Also, bring a .22 with you, give your Chrony a "sanity test".
 
Hmmm, an extreme spread of 2873-2734 = 139fps, that's quite a bit.

It is possible that your Chrony is giving you erratic readings, particularly with a blue sky (which is much darker than overcast sky). Take the skyscreens (diffusers) with you on your next trip, see if you get better results with them. Also, bring a .22 with you, give your Chrony a "sanity test".

That sir, is exactly what I will do! Thanks for the great info/ideas. I will post results soon. Thanks again!
 
To confirm what the Chrony is telling you, sight the rifle in for 100, then shoot a group at 300 and see if the drop is similar to what the value is from a ballsitic calculator like JBM Calculations.

Edited to add,
OOPs, I see Doc M beat me to it.

Great minds think alike! :D

-M
 
Well, I went out this aft and got some new numbers that look a little more realistic. Then like and idiot, I managed to nail the chrony and put myself out of action! I did manage to get 5 good shots, here are the results:

2760
2753
2753
2710
2717

Looks a little better to me, other than a smashed Chrony.
 
Well, I didn't get a chance to shoot out to any kind of distance today, more because I was so p#ssed I hit my chrony. Will try to to do drop test at 100 and 300 this weekend.

I'd be pissed too... I hope it was an alpha and not a gamma... If I smoked my gamma I think I'd just hang it up for a while LOL!

I've seen a few near misses like that, but one thing I will never forget is seeing my cousin shoot through the passenger mirror of a pickup truck gopher hunting as kids! Took slow, steady aim leaning on the side of the door... squeeeeezed the trigger... forgot that just because his sights could see over the mirror didn't mean his barrel had cleared it.

I think the gopher died laughing anyway though, seeing that!

-M
 
The funny thing is, at first I just knicked one of the rods which, of course, bent it. So then I readjusted the unit and removed the rods. Everything looked good for 3 shots and then...WHAM! I am going to contact chrony and see if it can be repaired as it's not totally destroyed.
 
Boomer, now you are getting into the nitty-gritty of stats, a subject I freely admit to exceed my mathematical pay-grade (if you'll pardon my Obamism).

I do know is that the group centre fluctuates a bit as shots are added to the group. But I think that I also understand that the location of the group centre is known to a greater certainty than the group size (i.e. it converges pretty quickly).

So even though a 300m group might measure 2" or 3" in diameter, the centre a 5-shot group will actually indicate the actual group centre to a higher level of certainty. You have to start asking a real stats person though whether you know it to within a 1/4", 1/2", and inch, etc - they'll mumble things about sigmas, and confidence intervals, and 95% something, etc... ;-)

What I know about stats you could write on the head of a pin with a 4" paintbrush, but I readily accept the concept that the larger the sample size, the more precise the results. IIRC, Townsend Whelen used 20 rounds at 300 to get a baseline of accuracy from a rifle. So the question is then, can one determine the difference in drop between a 5 shot group and a 20 shot group. Based on my limited experience, they should be for all practical purposes the same. Provided one discounts the fliers in each group, the center of the 5 shot group should have the same elevation as the center of the 20 shot group. If the group was made up of 100 shots, the greatest density of impacts would be near the center, not the outside of the group, and the results again would be that the elevation of the 100 round group would be very similar to the 20 or the 5.

A while back I had a discussion where a poster took exception to my statement that a hunter could ethically take a 300 yard shot on a moose with a 4 MOA rifle, provided he could shoot up to the rifle. A true 4 MOA rifle will always place it's bullet within 6" of the point of aim on a target at 300 yards, but a good hunting rifle might always place the first cold bore shot within a half inch of the point of aim, regardless of where it might place the 20th. The hunter is not concerned that his 20th round fired in quick succession might be 6" away from his first, because if he hasn't solved the problem with his first couple of shots, he probably won't solve it. Yet he has a 4 minute rifle not a 1 minute rifle.

So it is when attempting to match trajectory in real world shooting results to the projected trajectory from a computer program. The computer program represents the results accrued from a huge sample size, while the real world results are from a relatively small sample. Provided that the individual who is attempting to reach a conclusion by comparing his sample to the larger sample accepts some variation, he should be able to recognize something that is well outside of what he would expect to see. Its all interesting stuff all the same.
 
A while back I had a discussion where a poster took exception to my statement that a hunter could ethically take a 300 yard shot on a moose with a 4 MOA rifle, provided he could shoot up to the rifle. A true 4 MOA rifle will always place it's bullet within 6" of the point of aim on a target at 300 yards, but a good hunting rifle might always place the first cold bore shot within a half inch of the point of aim, regardless of where it might place the 20th.

If a good hunting rifle always places its first cold bore shot within half an inch of (somewhere), then it is shooting a 1" group at 300 yards, and it is therefore a 1/3-MOA rifle.

If it places subsequent, non-cold-bore shots in a larger group, but it still reliably places the first cold-bore shot within 1/2" of a particular point, then it is a 1/3-MOA rifle with an asterisk beside it (i.e. is has a warm barrel wandering zero problem).

The hunter is not concerned that his 20th round fired in quick succession might be 6" away from his first, because if he hasn't solved the problem with his first couple of shots, he probably won't solve it. Yet he has a 4 minute rifle not a 1 minute rifle.

With hunting rifles, in particular with factory-built hunting rifles, there are very real problems that we might have to be aware of, and learn how to work around (e.g. point of impact shifting as a barrel warms up). These problems in theory could be fixed by a gunsmith, or they can be "worked around" by the experimenter during testing (e.g. shooting each shot with a cool barrel).

But the important definition of a group, is where you expect your shots to land. There are a variety of legitimate definitions too, each with their own uses - for example, where all your shots land, where most of your shots land, where many of your shots land, where "the-average" (defined in whatever way you wish) shot lands.

It's also OK if you define each shot that "counts" in a special way (so long as you do it ahead of time, before you've fired the shot and seen where it has landed!). You can consider only "the first cold bore shot of the day", or "a shot fired from a fully cooled barrel". That doesn't change the stats any, though it can make your testing *much* more labourious(!).

A hunting rifle with a wandering zero that shoots honest 4-MOA groups when the barrel is allowed to get too warm may well shoot quite a bit better if every shot is fired from a cold (or cool) barrel. But except for the truly extraordinary "lucky" factory rifles that really do come along once in a blue moon, a realistic accuracy figure might be 1.0-1.5 MOA group size (for groups with ten or more shots in them).

So if you had a hunting rifle that delivered a true 1.5 MOA grouping with its cold-barreled shots, you would expect every cold bore shot to go into a 4.5" diameter group at 300 yards, or phrased another way, each individual shot to be no more than 2.25" from the group's centre (and BTW you won't know where the group's centre is, until you have finished firing all the shots in your group).

"Anywhere within 2.25 inches" means literally that. Shots number 1,2,3 and 5 might be within half an inch of each other but near the left edge of the group, and shot number 4 might be nearly at the right edge of the group. This might look like "a half inch group with a flyer that opened it up to 4 inches", but it isn't; it is just one of the many ways that groups can form. Especially when statistics decides to be perverse and pick on you.

The computer program represents the results accrued from a huge sample size, while the real world results are from a relatively small sample.

A minor nit (which doesn't detract from the actual point you are making). Ballistics programs compute trajectories of a single, idealized bullet. To the extent that the right parameters are used, they give pretty darn good results. (it is true that the data that are used to derive the information that goes into ballistics programs come from real world measurements of many actual fired shots - but all of these data are blended together and combined to form an idealized internal "model" of how a bullet interacts with the air).
 
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