Question for the blackpowder damascus shotgun people!

emilio613

emilio613

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I have a quick question for you guys. I had someone load up a few rounds for me, for a 10 Ga. Damascus shot gun I own. 10 Ga, 2 3/4, 4 drams of powder, 1 1/4oz shot.

I am just wondering, seeing as this is a WW Greener from 1864 or before (hammergun), damascus barrel....

Do you think it is safe to shoot in that gun? I mean, I know you'd need to see the gun's condition, etc.

Previous owner of the gun told me it is safe to shoot. I think it is, it seems solid.... The barrel lug has been re-soldered on, but it looks to be a very solid job

Any advice would be appreciated. I read somewhere that 3 drams should be where you start.... but its a solid and heavy firearm!

Any tips? Don't shoot it? Shoot it once or twice?
 
There is no reason not to shoot a Damascus shotgun as long as you keep to moderate charges of black powder. It is an old gun, respect that and don't try to turbocharge your loads and it will be fine.

I can't comment on a load for a 10 ga as I have only ever had 12 ga.

Just for interest, what kind of wad is in those shells?
 
Yea, I had it double checked by the manufacturer, and they told that based off the serial, it has to be that old, because it is from before they started keeping records of their sales/production.

It is a hammergun, but for sure a cartridge 10Ga.

As for the wad, no idea, as I don't reload lol. I would have to ask and get back to you! :)

The load is 4 drams of Blackpowder, so I should be ok I think :)
 
Interesting! What sort of action locking system does it use? Any chance of photos?
I'm one of those who does not categorically state that no welded barrel gun should ever be fired. I'm prepared to make the decision on a gun by gun basis.
 
IF YOU WOULD LIKE ANY OTHERS, LET ME KNOW! :)

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emilio613 said:
Really? That dangerous to shoot? Darn! I sort of want to shoot it, too! haha

Is there anybody in the OTTAWA area that would be willing to take a look at my shotgun, to determine whether or not I should shoot it? Anyone?

Thanks!
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It MIGHT be OK, might! Damascus is made by hammer-welding strips of twisted steel around a mandrel by hand, which produces the beautiful patterns that are much admired. Such welding invariably has slag inclusions and air pockets that will oxidize (rust) over time, weakening the barrel. Yours was made in 1964! Examine pics of burst shotgun barrels first, and observe where they burst. If right handed the burst is where the left hand holds the fore-end. Shoot it at your own risk, but do so with that knowledge.

It CAN be used with insert barrels, .410 inserts are very popular. The steel or aluminum inserts contain all the pressure, thus no strain on the damascus and shoots quite well. I once had a Lefever 12 gauge double with damascus barrels, not nearly as pretty as yours, never shot it as a 12 gauge, but had a set of steel Savage '.4-tenner inserts' that worked great. I used that heavy old gun on skeet, managed one 100 straight and several 75 straight scores.

IMHO, I wouldn't shoot any old damascus 'naked', without insert tubes.
 
damascus guns

i shoot an englis sxs muzzleloader made by hopkins of london, its over 150 yrs old, ill be shooting it again tomorrow, whoever tells you damascus or twist guns are bad, may have seen barrels in poor cond being used, thats a first thing to do, visually inspect the barrels, are they rusty? are the bores deeply pitted? is the load you will be using appropriate, ive been shooting damascus guns all my life, i had some proofed with smokeles loads, i also have a wall hanger that i decided to put back in service, a cheap belgian sxs 12g muzz loader, which probably hasnt been shot in 80 yrs or more? i took the barrels snd proofed them as the proof houses did in liege, triple powder triple shot, 3 times in each barrel, if the gun withdtood it, it was deemed safe, now i proofed mine, by tieing the barrels to a 2x6 plank; anchored to ground,, i double charge both barrels, powder was 180grns, shot was 2oz, we poured powder over the nipplles and used a shorted out extension cord to ignite the charges from about 100ft away standing behind a plywood wall, i plugged it in, and it went kaboom, both barrels went at same time, i went down, here were my barrelsw, JUST FINE!

So if the barrels on your gun are in gd cond and the gun is mech sound, i would use this load, 90gr of 2f, a 1/2" wad, equal amount of shot using powder measure, it will come out to about 1 1/40z, which was a standard field load in england

my sxs has a few pitts, as a gun of its age should, in some cases damascus barrels have withstood more pressure in tests than a drawn steel barrel
ive seen a browning bpd explode in a guys hand, 5 th round the gun ever fired
so dont put the "ITS GONNA BLOW YOU HAND OFF LABEL ON ANY DAMASCUS GUN, THEY WERE ALL HAAND CRAFTED AND WELL MADE, AND INSPECTED AT THE TIME OF MANUFACTURE, I WONDER WHO INSPECTED MY BUDDIES 800$ BROWNING THAT THE COMPANY GAVE HIM VOUCHERS FOR KENT AMMO, AND A GD DEAL ON A NEW BARREL
 
HUNTERROD said:
i shoot an englis sxs muzzleloader made by hopkins of london, its over 150 yrs old, ill be shooting it again tomorrow, whoever tells you damascus or twist guns are bad, may have seen barrels in poor cond being used, thats a first thing to do, visually inspect the barrels, are they rusty? are the bores deeply pitted? is the load you will be using appropriate, ive been shooting damascus guns all my life, i had some proofed with smokeles loads, i also have a wall hanger that i decided to put back in service, a cheap belgian sxs 12g muzz loader, which probably hasnt been shot in 80 yrs or more? i took the barrels snd proofed them as the proof houses did in liege, triple powder triple shot, 3 times in each barrel, if the gun withdtood it, it was deemed safe, now i proofed mine, by tieing the barrels to a 2x6 plank; anchored to ground,, i double charge both barrels, powder was 180grns, shot was 2oz, we poured powder over the nipplles and used a shorted out extension cord to ignite the charges from about 100ft away standing behind a plywood wall, i plugged it in, and it went kaboom, both barrels went at same time, i went down, here were my barrelsw, JUST FINE!

So if the barrels on your gun are in gd cond and the gun is mech sound, i would use this load, 90gr of 2f, a 1/2" wad, equal amount of shot using powder measure, it will come out to about 1 1/40z, which was a standard field load in england

my sxs has a few pitts, as a gun of its age should, in some cases damascus barrels have withstood more pressure in tests than a drawn steel barrel
ive seen a browning bpd explode in a guys hand, 5 th round the gun ever fired
so dont put the "ITS GONNA BLOW YOU HAND OFF LABEL ON ANY DAMASCUS GUN, THEY WERE ALL HAAND CRAFTED AND WELL MADE, AND INSPECTED AT THE TIME OF MANUFACTURE, I WONDER WHO INSPECTED MY BUDDIES 800$ BROWNING THAT THE COMPANY GAVE HIM VOUCHERS FOR KENT AMMO, AND A GD DEAL ON A NEW BARREL
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Well I figure seeing mine is a WW Greener (a company whose guns sell for 2K + these days, for the same one I have - mine was fixed and cracked in the stock etc. value is pretty low now), so the quality is there.

The barrels have LIGHT pitting (the end of the barrel, towards the "tip" is actually still smooth).... its not that bad. I would have imagined worse, but not too shabby. Will post a pic if I get a chance later on. :)

I think a 4 dram load with the typical English 1 1/4" load should be ok. not sure on the wads, need to look into that! (ask the guy who loaded for me)
 
If the condition is safe/okay, myself I see no great danger in firing (black powder recommended loads only) in a damascus barrelled firearm. Heck, my howdah pistol is circa 1840s and I've fired it dozens of times recently. I also researched safe loads for it. I even found WW Greener recommended loads. Those who say never never are missing out IMO. Track of the Wolf would be out of some serious income if we all felt this way. Also this is a BP cartridge gun, hence one should have the added security of an all brass (preferably new manufacture) shotgun shell, versus a percusssion muzzleloader.
That's one nice SxS Emilio613!
 
Brutus said:
If the condition is safe/okay, myself I see no great danger in firing (black powder recommended loads only) in a damascus barrelled firearm. Heck, my howdah pistol is circa 1840s and I've fired it dozens of times recently. I also researched safe loads for it. I even found WW Greener recommended loads. Those who say never never are missing out IMO. Track of the Wolf would be out of some serious income if we all felt this way. Also this is a BP cartridge gun, hence one should have the added security of an all brass (preferably new manufacture) shotgun shell, versus a percusssion muzzleloader.
That's one nice SxS Emilio613!
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I have an old muzzleloader cape gun (one shotgun, one rifle barrel) with a burst (left) rifle barrel. The burst is about 5 inches long just over the fore-end, and had I been shooting it would have taken OFF my left thumb and my nickname would be 'Lefty".

I have read of shooters using damascus guns for years before suffering a catastrophic failure. No damascus for me. Good luck.
 
Brutus said:
If the condition is safe/okay, myself I see no great danger in firing (black powder recommended loads only) in a damascus barrelled firearm. Heck, my howdah pistol is circa 1840s and I've fired it dozens of times recently. I also researched safe loads for it. I even found WW Greener recommended loads. Those who say never never are missing out IMO. Track of the Wolf would be out of some serious income if we all felt this way. Also this is a BP cartridge gun, hence one should have the added security of an all brass (preferably new manufacture) shotgun shell, versus a percusssion muzzleloader.
That's one nice SxS Emilio613!
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Sounds like solid advice! :)

And thanks, I love the way it looks, its more of a display gun, but I woud like to fire it at least once! :)
 
Opcx6 said:
I have an old muzzleloader cape gun (one shotgun, one rifle barrel) with a burst (left) rifle barrel. The burst is about 5 inches long just over the fore-end, and had I been shooting it would have taken OFF my left thumb and my nickname would be 'Lefty".

I have read of shooters using damascus guns for years before suffering a catastrophic failure. No damascus for me. Good luck.
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And, of course, you know to a certainty what caused the burst barrel.
For example, you know for a fact that the rifle barrel was not fired with a ball not properly seated on the powder charge. If a ball is not seated on the powder a modern steel barrel can be burst.
Yes, you might have lost a thumb when this mishap occurred, but do you really know what was the cause? Or are you just making assumptiions?
 
tiriaq said:
And, of course, you know to a certainty what caused the burst barrel.
For example, you know for a fact that the rifle barrel was not fired with a ball not properly seated on the powder charge. If a ball is not seated on the powder a modern steel barrel can be burst.
Yes, you might have lost a thumb when this mishap occurred, but do you really know what was the cause? Or are you just making assumptiions?
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I see you have all the answers with your vast knowledge of firearms spanning how many years?
There is no assumption that the barrel is burst, I imagine that the cause was TOO MUCH PRESSURE for a damascus barrel!
The gun in question didn't come with an explanation or description of its demise. Perhaps you could tell exactly what the problem was with by examining it? I am in Bradford, Ont., if you care to come by and look at it. I would really like to know what happened to it.
 
Welded barrels were almost invariably used in all small arms of all types until the mid-1800s. Smoothbores, rifles, pistols. The welding varied from a simple longitudinal seam, to a spiral wrap, to a wide variety increasingly complex pattern welds. Each particular pattern had a name; nowadays they all get lumped together as "Damascus". Given the technology available, it was more practical to seam weld a tube than to drill and ream a hole through a solid bar. The first British regular service rifle to use a bored from solid barrel was the Mk. III Snider.
One of the most skilled barrel welders was a Belgian named Zenobe Gramme, of Liege. To demonstate his mastery, he could weld barrels with words worked into the matrix of the iron and steel. There are surviving barrels with his name, Prince Albert, and Remington, repeated over and over in the spiral welds. The first two barrels are in Belgium, the latter in the US. The Remington barrels are fitted to a high grade Remington double. As is usual with doubles, one barrel is right hand twist, the other left hand. The Remington double was almost reblued before the pattern was noticed.
 
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