Question For The Run N Gun Boys...

misanthropist said:
A well built AR with plenty of lube should run for thousands of rounds between cleanings if desired.
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Pat Rogers has an ar15 he used as a loaner/rental named filthy 14 (16-inch Bravo Company Mid Length Carbine)

http://www.slip2000.com/blog/s-w-a-t-magazine-filthy-14/
We received the carbine in late 2008 and put #14 into service shortly thereafter.

At Brady, Texas, in March 2009, it suffered a malfunction, which was reduced with Immediate Action. The bolt was wiped down at 6,450 rounds.

At Prairie du Chien, Wisconsin, in May 2009, it had several failures to extract, and the extractor spring was replaced at 13,010 rounds. This is far beyond the normal extractor spring life under these conditions.

At Wamego, Kansas, in June 2009, two bolt lugs broke at 16,400 rounds. We replaced the BCG. Considering the firing schedule, this is within normal parameters.

At Columbus, Ohio, in November 2009, we had several failures to extract at 24,450 rounds. The shooter gave it a field cleaning and replaced the extractor and extractor spring.

At 28,905 rounds, we finally cleaned Filthy 14. As part of our year-end maintenance schedule, we inspect and replace parts as necessary. Filthy 14 looked like the inside of the crankcase of Uncle Ed’s ’49 Packard. It was disgusting to look at and contaminated everything near it, somewhat like the toner cartridges for old printers.

I plopped it into a parts washer filled with Slip 725 parts cleaner, and 20 minutes later it was clean. Mostly clean, anyway.

We have never used a bore brush in the barrel of this gun. We did run a patch down the barrel twice, but that was all. At 50 yards it still shoots two-inch groups, and we understand that it might not at 100 yards and beyond, but we are happy with the fact that, even at 50 yards, the gun is capable of tighter groups than most of the people running it.

We have never used a chamber brush in this gun either. We were often told that this was an absolute must.

Sure…

At the last class in Casa Grande, Arizona, at approximately 30,000 rounds, we had several failures to extract. We replaced the extractor spring and wiped down the BCG.

By the time you read this, we’ll likely have another 3,000 to 4,000 rounds through Filthy 14. At that point we’ll probably retire it. We’ll reuse the LaRue rail, the sights and, after rebuilding the lower, and replace that old and well-worn mid length upper with something else.
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Are you sure there's nothing wrong with your gas system and/or buffer? I'm no expert on issues with inappropriate gassing, but a well-lubed AR shouldn't fail to lock back after only 100 rounds.
What kind of ammo, buffer, barrel and gas port size are you running?
 
thanks for that post/link it was a great article to read!

IMO A couple things worth mentioning for the cleaning schedule is that

a) when you clean it, you’re also inspecting the pieces for wear and damage to avoid failures. Whether it’s just a bore snake, a field strip, detail strip, or full on energy bath, the inspection part of that becomes important if you are planning to rely on the gun for anything more than range time and paper targets. Regular inspections of relatively clean parts will allow you to notice small problems before they become failures... hopefully lol, which means less down time at the range and a more reliable gun all the time... he touched on that later in the article,

“Again, let me repeat the caveat. If you are carrying a gun for real, you need to be looking at it every 5,000 rounds or so. But if your cleaning takes more than 10 to 15 minutes, you are wasting your time on nonsense.”


i’m a clean it every 3-400 rnds kinda guy, but i like to inspect it, lube it, and justbhandlenthebparts in general to be familiar/proficient with them on a regular basis. My current system takes about 20 minutes total.
This article might help me shave a few minutes of elbow work off that.

b) I also liked his comment about how he used to clean like crazy,

“My background of belonging to a tribe where weapons cleaning approached Jesuit-like fanaticism caused me to once believe that the AR must be spotlessly, white-glove clean in order for it to run.
We know that is patently false, and in fact the overzealous cleaning regimen—clean for three days in a row, use of scrapers on the BCG, attaching chamber and bore brushes to drills, etc.—is harmful to the guns.”

clean it with normal tools, don’t go nuts - pretty solid advice for the average user i would say.

c) for those who haven’t bought any yet, parts like the ejector spring etc are dirt cheap ($3 and less if you buy bulk)and you might as well change them out ahead of schedule to avoid done time. it pays to have some parts in you range bag or tool box at home - before you need them.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1003338067/dpms-ultimate-repair-kit-ar-15. <——— i’m not vouching for this parts kit in any way, just showing an example of how cheap and easy these parts are to get and install with a manual and tube/goggle.



To each their own in guess, great article thanks again for sharing!
 
Running a BCM 14.5 mid-length. I wipe down the BCG when there is carbon caked onto it. Thats it. Lubed generously with Slip 2000 EWL when I feel it start to slow down. Never had an issue or malfunction in 4000ish rounds.
 
Ever since i started running a nickle boron bcg 1.5 year ago. I stopped cleaning it..lube down the upper sliding channels. Lube on bcg and trigger the night before i head out to the range
 
There is a difference between running it dirty with "carbon fouling" only and dirty with "carbon and debris ".

When the firearm is used out in the field, dirt, debris and sand will get into the rifle no matter what. Some of these training courses that shoot couple hundreds of rounds a day, but it is still shooting at the range. The rifle either stays on the body or got put on the rack / table.

The more appropriate response is, if the rifle is only used at the range, it will go on almost forever without cleaning. Excessive cleaning is a waste of time. If the rifle is used out in the field, it should be cleaned and wiped down whenever and wherever possible to get any foreign matter out.
 
Rifle: Core15 M4 16"
Ammo: Norinco 5.56, Barnaul 62gr, freedom buckets
Ammo count: 3 700 rds
Cleaning product: Breakfree CLP
Frequency: Periodically after each season. Between 500 and 1000 rds. I'll clean the BCG more frequently

Zero stoppage so far aside from empty magazines and user induced. I dont run it dripping wet but with a light coat of CLP
 
Does oiling the BCG count as cleaning?

If yes: every 1500 rounds or so, depending on how long it's going to be sitting in between range days

If no: 3000-5000 rounds
 
within 100 rounds sounds like defective ammo, mag, debris or messed up bolt catch. More details are needed please. Lubrication won't be the problem
 
Thousands of rounds on an ar? Without even a wipe down? Bs.

In my experience 300 to 500 and the firing pin is starting to stick which can cause lite strikes. The Bolt is getting gummed up too... by the time im on mag 10 (30 rounders) im hitting the forward to assist to fix stopages.

Some of the non ar platforms i would believe getting thousands threw. But not a dirrect gas system. Even a C9 machine gun is having issues before 1000 rounds with use of a second barrel and gas plug.
 
LordEvilPepper said:
Thousands of rounds on an ar? Without even a wipe down? Bs.

In my experience 300 to 500 and the firing pin is starting to stick which can cause lite strikes. The Bolt is getting gummed up too... by the time im on mag 10 (30 rounders) im hitting the forward to assist to fix stopages.

Some of the non ar platforms i would believe getting thousands threw. But not a dirrect gas system. Even a C9 machine gun is having issues before 1000 rounds with use of a second barrel and gas plug.
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Have a read aboug filthy 14 that was used at EAG (Pat Rogers school). 30k plus rounds and only ever lubed..
 
LordEvilPepper said:
Thousands of rounds on an ar? Without even a wipe down? Bs.

In my experience 300 to 500 and the firing pin is starting to stick which can cause lite strikes. The Bolt is getting gummed up too... by the time im on mag 10 (30 rounders) im hitting the forward to assist to fix stopages.

Some of the non ar platforms i would believe getting thousands threw. But not a dirrect gas system. Even a C9 machine gun is having issues before 1000 rounds with use of a second barrel and gas plug.
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Dono, Ive fired 300+ rounds in one outing. Zero malfunctions with my CC iur rifle (came complete), I only add lube between range trips. Combined round count before stripping the bolt down was around 1800-2200.
 
LordEvilPepper said:
Thousands of rounds on an ar? Without even a wipe down? Bs.

In my experience 300 to 500 and the firing pin is starting to stick which can cause lite strikes. The Bolt is getting gummed up too... by the time im on mag 10 (30 rounders) im hitting the forward to assist to fix stopages.

Some of the non ar platforms i would believe getting thousands threw. But not a dirrect gas system. Even a C9 machine gun is having issues before 1000 rounds with use of a second barrel and gas plug.
Click to expand...

I would be pretty damn upset if I could only get through 300 rounds before I had to stop and clean. Something's not right...
 
Guys that have seen my guns know I dont clean them...lol... if I had to clean a rifle at 300 rounds Id be super pissed, Heck we blow thru 300 round in a couple of hours training. lol...
 
LordEvilPepper said:
Thousands of rounds on an ar? Without even a wipe down? Bs.

In my experience 300 to 500 and the firing pin is starting to stick which can cause lite strikes. The Bolt is getting gummed up too... by the time im on mag 10 (30 rounders) im hitting the forward to assist to fix stopages.

Some of the non ar platforms i would believe getting thousands threw. But not a dirrect gas system. Even a C9 machine gun is having issues before 1000 rounds with use of a second barrel and gas plug.
Click to expand...
That has not been my experience at all. I have yet to own an AR with a standard buffer system that doesn't go a thousand rounds between stoppages with nothing but oil dripped onto the bolt.

I have an NEA 12.5 that ran for 2700 rounds that way. The first problem I had was a failure to lock back, somewhere around 2720 rounds. And that was an NEA. I'd gotten mud in the bolt catch spring channel. I actually thought it was a broken spring so I ordered a new spring from Saskatoon Gun Works, but when I went to replace it I realized it was just packed up with mud.

I have lost track of the thousand-round courses I've run with plain-Jane ARs. I have never once cleaned a gun mid-course and I have never had an issue with light strikes. Not on the BCM, not on the NEA 12.5, not on the IUR. In fact my experience has been so uniform that I recently took a CCS-equipped frankengun to a course expecting it to run fine...because I have literally never seen a decent AR give issues. It turned out that the CCS was really finicky, so I changed guns. But my other gun ran without issue for the remaining days.
 
At 300 its still running but i find the bolt often won't lock up if i use the bolt catch release ... to much crap has built up around the gas rings and the bolt is getting realy stiff to turn in the BCG... by 500 im getting starting to get regular failure to lockup stopages. Ever C7 i have ever fired is that way.... by the end of a platoon attack it ready for a muckout. Not a simple wipe down but scrapping over a 1/16 of hardened carbon off the bolt, a heavy layer out of the bcg body and off the firing pin. Its usualy so dirty i need a gerber to get the firing pin out because its so gummed up and will not drop free even hitting it on sonething hard.

Civie side i find some The ammo is even dirtier... That norc stuff left junk and brass chips in the locking lucks... a few hundred rounds and the norc ar15 was back in its case because it was getting failures to feed ever couple rounds due to fouling.
 
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