Question: What do honest groups look like.???

warrenb

warrenb

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There has been quite a a bit of discussion regarding posted groups lately. I personally don't know what constitutes an honest group. I don't compete so I don't see a lot of real shooters groups. Most of my impressions come from internet pictures. I've also taken a peek at the targets of some of the guys that do compete when they frequent Stittesville range and some of their groups are phenomenal.

With this in mind I shot a couple of 10 shot groups with my .223 last Wednesday. I did not cherry pick I shot 2 groups of 10 and thought I would post them. These were shot with my shillened Stevens 200 at 300 yards in good sunlight, little wind and a bit of mirage. They constitute what I believe are my honest groups with this rifle. Nothing great but its where I am, at this time with my shooting ability.

The first group measures 2.239 inches and the second measures 1.89 inches. There is a 308 hole in the centre of the second target as some gentleman decided to use my target as there were no others available for him at 300 yards. :rolleyes:

Anyway I hope some of you will post your honest groups. There are actually quite a few of us relative newbies that don't exactly know what we should be aiming for (no pun). Please don't be modest. Post your honest groups.

10shots001.jpg

10shots003.jpg
 
Much, much will of course depend on the rifle, ammo, glass, shooter and conditions but I will say that half-MOA is pretty darn good. Anything smaller is, of course, better but half-MOA should tell you that you are on the right track.
 
Nothing wrong with that shooting. Is it an "honest" group? I would say it is. Some guys will shoot only three, but in my estimation a three shot group is not enough; five is better. Your ten shot group is more than adequate to get an average group size. So what of your group? Given that you are shooting sub-MOA (3" at 300 yards is MOA, and you are doing better than that) I would say you certainly are shooting well.
 
here is the "average" form my 5r in 308, bedded and trigger done, this is from a perticular windy day, horizontal spread is usually about 3/4 the size of this

photo3.jpg



and this is 100yds from my savage LRPV, this is the normal groupings, keeping in mind the load im useing currently is just left over loaded rounds from my old .223 that was a 1:12 where as the savage is 1:7 load is 60gn vmaz with 25.2gn vargtet

DSCN0642-1.jpg
 
I think most just post their best groups which is understandable.
I think my average groups are usually about double to triple the size of my really good groups.
 
I'm still waiting to shoot that perfect one-hole group that everyone and their wife can shoot using anything from a Stevens to a Timberwolf ... but it's the Internet after all and who wouldn't show off a great group. I take comfort in averages - statistics - ... A .1" group is probably luck, the far end of a statistical spread, the other end is probably over 1MOA on someone's bad day.

I can "honesty" say that my Tikka averages .5MOA, sometimes better, sometimes worse, and a solid .5MOA is good enough when you hit the firing line and people will be impressed with your final score if you done you job right with the wind and trigger because you will be more consistent, despite not having all your bullets go through one hole.

That's my 2 cents after a year and a bit of diving into shooting.
 
This isnt my best but this was my test loads and what I eventually settled on, 5 shots. the last 2 shots are hidden about an inch low right. This is a typical group for me, ussually my groups are broken up into 2 groups and each group the holes ussually touch.
from a rem 700 sps .308 bedded stock and jewel trigger. with factory ammo my groups are under 3/4inch.
reloadaccuracy.jpg
 
good on you for shootng a 10-shot group. smaller groups don't tell much.

you know you need three things to shoot a tight group: first and foremost, you must be up to it skill wise. next you need a precise firearm and lastly you need consistent ammo that works in your gun.

short range benchrest shooters can, on a good ay produce groups well under half moa, with many being .1 and .2 groups or better.

a good palma rifle shoud be able to shoot under a half moa all day long.

f-class guns need to shoot well under a half moa to compete, and most are not happy until their loads are making .2 and .3 moa groups.

any off the shelf gun that can produce under 1 moa with factory ammo is exceptional, and 1-1.5 is an industry average.

mastering what it takes to shoot tight groups is most important and something that doesn't come instantly. also, the gun may be able to do it but when conditions change a good shooter will know how to steer around them and still get tight groups. every aimed shot down range makes you a more experienced shooter. nobody can break the 4 minute mile the first day they start running, so think of a group the same way.
 
Nice groups

The best groups I have seen at Stittsville all fellows shooting 223 with 7 twist & heavy 80 & 90gr bullets
This was a savage action 30 TF Barrel 50x Sightron
at 100 y I watched this group shot there is 5 shots
P1080622.jpg

Another 223 1/7 twist
SavageRobertson015.jpg

This group was .161" at 100 223Rem
Rem40xat50100y001.jpg

This a factory Rem xcr LR 26" at 300Y
rem700XCRLongrangeTactical013-1.jpg


There was 5 fellows shooting at 300 yards on Wed Aug 15 testing for zerro for the F class Nationals at Connaught that started today.
One shooter from Austrailia,284win one from BC 308win, few others from Ottawa Area the all where shooting 5 shot groups 1"+or -
But here is a three shot group at 300y that everyone saw, fellow said he would ever shoot this again in a million years

Just under .200 at 300yards

P1080982.jpg
 
Paul,

I wrote the wrong date on my target. :redface:
I got to Stittesville on Wednesday at 4pm. Apparently you guys had been there earlier. I could've seen those targets in real life.

Thanks for posting. I know you can shoot. And Good luck this weekend.
 
I shot these two groups with my Savage 6br at 400 yards. The one with 6 holes already had one in the paper from before and the other either had 2 into 1 hole or one got blown off the paper in a gust of wind.

400yards2.jpg

400yards1.jpg


My best 100 yard group with the 6br.

IMG-20120728-00275.jpg


This was a 10 shot group (fired fairly quickly) at 200 yards with a factory Savage Model 10 .223 with a Rifle Basix trigger. The little hole on the left if a 17cal bullet hole.

IMG-20120816-00301.jpg


300 yards with the same rifle.

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I ain't no professional that's for sure.
 
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I have a noob question for you guys; i get the importance of a thight grouping but why is there so many ppl not hiting the dead center? is it just because it doesent really mather when its only precision shotting and not hunting?
 
Guillaume001 said:
I have a noob question for you guys; i get the importance of a thight grouping but why is there so many ppl not hiting the dead center? is it just because it doesent really mather when its only precision shotting and not hunting?
Click to expand...

It is a good question - the answer is that the object of the exercise is to produce really tight groups so the aim point is only that; an aim point. Personally I don't want to drill the centre out of my target because once that is gone them I have lost my aiming point. Rest assured that on match day everyone has mad adustments to their scopes so that, ideally, the V-Bull is drilled every shot.
 
just went to the pit to confirm a sweet spot with my 6.5x55 this afternoon and I did the best group ever with that rifle 3 shots in 1/2 inch at 150 yards
the others were around 1 and 1 1/4
this 1/2 " group is not consistent ans is just a lucky shot
check the average grouping, and remoove the flyers (peoples usually hide thoses holes with a coin ;) )
 
Here are two of mine from last year when I tried the MOA challenge myself one day.
55gr vmax, Savage 12FVSS 223 @ 300 Meters, factory rig but self-bedded.

june11_55v.jpg


Steve
 
Good to see the honest groups! I think often we only show our best.. start over on a new group as soon as we get a flier, cover it with a coin (now thats just dirty:p) or whatever. Averages are certainly what matter
 
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