Questions About .303 Epps

p-17

p-17

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This thread is directed to those of you who have actual personal experience with the .303 Epps cartridge.

To begin, I have an old Parker Hale sporterized SMLE. As the pictures below show, it is based on an Australian Lithgow No. 1 action from 1944. This is an excellent action, as far as No. 1s go. In fact, in my experience, it is pushing the No. 4 in terms of strength. That is a significant fact for the purposes of this discussion.

It may or may not be relevant, but it has a nice shortened magazine box that sits nearly flush with the bottom of the action. Here are a few photos:

303Rifle.jpg



303Action.jpg



303Mag.jpg



In my experience over the years, this has been a decent rifle. In fact, it has even proven capable of 1 m.o.a. groups on occasion. The problem is that the barrel is very rough and pitted. After cleaning, it takes me a good 4 shots or so to get it fouled in. Then, I get another 4 or 5 shots of good accuracy before it fouls up so much that it starts spraying shots. Clearly, a new barrel would improve things considerably.

I've recently been offered a line on a brand-new barrel that is chambered for the .303 Epps cartridge. The barrel is in the white and would be installed by a gunsmith with impeccable credentials. Suffice it to say that I'm very tempted by this offer but I have a few specific questions first to determine if this choice is right for me. I wasn't sure which forum to post this thread in, but since most of my questions relate to reloading matters, this is where I chose.

You can assume that I'm a very experienced handloader and shooter. Here are some of my questions:

Action Strength/Pressure/Velocity Potential

If I go this route, you can assume that I will end up purchasing Steve Redgewell's book. For now, what do you think about putting a .303 Epps barrel on a No. 1 action (albeit, a STRONG Australian No. 1 action)? Assuming that I can get loads that push hard on levels appropriate for a No. 4 action, what is my realistic potential here?

For your info, I'm not really chasing velocity here as much as I'm interested in accuracy and case life. If I can get loads that even come close to .308 levels, I would be very happy indeed. I'd probably load up the new 150-grain TSX and be done.

Any comments you might have on this issue would be appreciated.

Brass/Fireforming

If I go this route, I'll probably have to fireform my brass first, won't I? I suppose I could fireform with actual loads, but is there any benefit to doing this?

Is there an easy and cheap way to take the rifle to the range with 100 cases and just fireform the brass in a few minutes? I've never had to fireform before, so practical guidance on this matter would be also appreciated.

Full-Length Sizing Die?

I have an FL sizer and seater for the standard .303 British. I also have a Lee Collet Neck Sizer for the standard .303 British. In my experience with this action to date, I find that the neck sizer is excellent, but it has one limitation. After about 3 or 4 firings, I find that the action becomes really stiff to close, even when the cases are trimmed to proper length. I'm assuming that this means the brass has expanded so much that it is pressing hard against the chamber. When it gets to such a stage, a simple trip through the FL sizer gets it chambering easily again, but the cracks start to appear soon after.

I've heard rumours that the Epps cartridge does not stretch cases as much because of the straight walls. Is this true?

Can I get by with just my Collet Neck Sizer? How important or necessary would it be for me to get a proper .303 Epps FL die? If so, where can I get one and how much would it cost? (Obviously, this would have to be another cost I'd factor into the overall cost of the conversion.)

Feeding

You've seen the action and you've seen the mag box. Are there any issues I should be aware of regarding the way this cartridge feeds? Given that the .303 Epps case is not as sloped as the original .303 British, how well does it function through magazines designed around the original cartridge?

Powders

Do you have any powders that you especially like to use with this cartridge? I normally like to use IMR 4320 .303 British loads. I've also got Varget and IMR 4350 on hand. I figure that something like 4350 might not be a bad choice in the Epps because it takes a lot that slow burning powder to develop high pressures in such small cases. IMR 4350 is generally considered a bit on the slow side for the standard .303 for this reason, but it might be great in a blown out case like the Epps. What do you think?

Thanks in advance, and I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this.

 
.303 Epps

Have a #4 Longbranch sporter I had made to an EPPs several years ago.

Have no opinions on the suitability of a Lithgow for .303 Epps...should work fine..you will have to decide how hard you want to push it.

I get accuracy at 2530 fps with a 180 grain bullet ...and 2900 fps with 125 grain bullets

You can fireform from regular .303 Brit. ctgs...or you can load up some cheap 71 grain Rem. .311 pistol bullets and use small amounts of shotgun/pistol powders to fire form or you can use these fast powders in the case alone topped with plastic shot buffer granules and cap with wax and fire form with out bullets like I do.

I got a set of used .303 epps RCBS dies from Epps in Ontario...$95 ...new was quoted at $140 (RCBS).

Once cases are formed ( From new or once fired Brass) they last as long as any other caliber rifle case.

My rifle needed side rails ground down a bit and unless you just want a singleshot rifle you'll need the magazine altered a bit also or it won't feed the Epps cases . My Mags hold 6 rounds each so effectively gives you a 7 shot capacity with one in the chamber.

My EPPS prefers' Reloder 15 and Re 7 and Imr4350..Imr3031 and Imr 4895 depending on the particular Bullet weight I choose to shoot.


" You can assume I am a very experienced reloader etc.".......lol

Your mileage may vary........
 
You might want to check Steve Redgwell's website (.303british.com). He's had a lot of experience with the Epps. CH4D (ch4d.com) in Mt. Vernon OH also has neck-sizing dies for about $52.00. (They seem to have dies for every cartridge on earth!)

I converted my BSA-sporterized P-14 to .303 Epps but haven't got around to playing with it yet so can't help you beyond this.

:) Stuart
 
I have a P14 rechambered to 303 Epps. It was done at Epps several years ago. At the time, I was going to have a #4 converted, but the gunsmith at Epps recommended I use the P14 as sometimes the magazine on the #4s, would cause feeding problems, which would sometines prove impossible to rectify.
As I had a P14, that was what I had rechambered and I love it. I switch back and forth with necksizing and full length sizing. I find that if I am having a good day, I do not damage any cases when I use the Lee Factory Crimp die after neck sizing. At the end of the day, you will need the die set to seat and crimp the shell, so factor in the price of a die set. CHD I am told makes reasonable dies for the 303 Epps, I bought my set from Epps Sporting Goods - in for a penny, in for a pound!
For reloading, I use R15. To cut one item from the powder locker, I will be switching to IMR 4895 or 4350 this summer. (If anyone has load data for 150, 180, and 200 g bullets, please pass along!)
Fireforming can be done a variety of ways, but what I usually do is buy a box of new shells and fireform them. That way I know that all cases are once fired.You can use the cream of wheat method to fireform, but the range staff may get a little nervous at the range when you point your rifle in the air and fire it a few times.
As you have the 5-round mag, you will probably need to spend some money on a new one if you want to hold more than three rounds (if you even get three into the reduced mag).
My recommenddation: find a reasonable P14, and get it rechambered. You will have a strong action which will allow full loads. If your Lithgow is in the rough for barrel pitting, there may be issues with your action or bolt as well - best assessed by a gunsmith.
They make great hunting rifles, every deer I shot with it has been a "bang flop", one even did a backflip for my son and I last year. Saves time spent on on tracking!
 
Steve R has a manual on loading for the .303 Epps, available through his website. He used to have some load data on the site as well, although I haven't checked if it's been incorporated into the new one. Here is some additional info he sent me:

Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007
From: Steve Redgwell <shooters@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Mk.9 and RL15 in the P-14


Hi Stuart.

Re 15 didn't really perform as well as the other powders. If you're looking for a powder that does well with both the 200 and 215 grain bullets, I'd go with IMR 4831. This will leave you the margin of safety for heat, as 4831 is a lower pressure powder with very good accuracy. IMR4320 is not good for that climate unless it is loaded way down.

H4350 is your best bet to get some velocity. From the Epps you'll get over 2400 fps with the 200 grain bullet. With the 215, it will be close. You're very much at the maximum with the loads listed in the book.

Safe Shooting!
Steve Redgwell
303british.com
Click to expand...

Now if I only ha time to get out to the range... The only problem I have with my P-14 is feeding RN bullets. I like to use Remington bulk 180 gn RN for practice. (Apparently they're pretty good for hunting as well.) I bought a few of Steve's "Mk 9" 200 grainers, but again, I haven't had a chance to try them out. Same with the Tru-Feed kit I got from Dayton-Traister, which is supposed to allow RN to feed.

:) Stuart
 
I had a Ross done up in 303Epps, and I also own a Lithgow Kiwi SMLE #3 in 303 British, as well as a #4. IMO, a #3, is NOT a #4 PERIOD.
They are beautiful, and accurate rifles, but although undoubtedly stronger than some other, and older variants, no where near as strong as the #4.
The Epps major advantages in a #3 would be lack of brass stretch.
I never had issues with brass stretch at all in the Ross, and I loaded it quite heavily.
Fireforming is easy, works pretty much every time. Simply fire a standard round in the improved chamber.
I liked H4350 for my loads.
Feeding in the Ross, was an issue, and I had to modify the feed ramp to get it to work.
Magazine modifications proved to be a major stumbling block fro me, working on the Ross's single column mag. I never did get it to load more than a few Epps rounds. I would fill the bottom of the Mag with regular rounds, then put two Epps on top. More Epps than that, and the Bolt would not pick up the top cartridge.
I never tried a regular SMLE mag, but, some mods will be needed, how severe, I can't say.
I used RCBS dies for the 303Epps bought from Epps store. (Who also did the rechambering).
I recommend that you get the headspace adjusted. Most (I hope) do it automatically, but, it's good to ask.

I've known Steve for a good number of years online. He's probably your best resource on this cartridge. He also makes his own very accurate bullets in diameters that suit some of the strange bore sizes found in the 303.
 
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Gentlemen, this is great information. The consensus seems to be that I will have feeding problems out of my SMLE magazine, the Lithgow No. 1 is probably too weak to make this worthwhile, and I will eventually need to by an Epps FL resizer. I guess this is not such a good idea after all.

I'll have to start thinking of other options for this old rifle.

Another dream would have been to cut a .308 barrel with a .303 reamer to yield a .30-303. Such a cartridge could be loaded like a regular .303, only you'd be able to use the more common .308 bullets. Unfortunately, the problem with such an idea is that you'd need to have a .308 pilot on your .303 reamer, and that's not practical. I mean, who has a .303 British reamer to begin with? If they do, how likely are they to have a .308 pilot on it?
 
I have a 25-303 Epps improved, it is the same as a 257 A1 and shoots 100 grain bullets @ 34-3500 fps using 50 grains 4831 but it is built on a P14 so the action can handle those rounds, I don't think I would build on a no3 or no4 action my self as there are lots of P14 actions around, Phone Epps in Orillia Ont and see what he has, he chamber just about anything on the 303, another good one he did was 6.5-303, 7-303. Just my thoughts. ps I custom built my own stock after I got the action and it shoots.
 
p-17,

I have had two 303 Imps, both on No 4 rifles. Never did get either one to feed properly from the magzine. :(

Bevan King makes very fine .311 barrels that are second to none! He also uses proper dimension chambering reamers, so you will not have the typical bulged brass at the base. My cases last for many reloadings, and the rifle is amazingly accurate!

He is retired, but may still have a barrel in the shop. 250 786-5200

Ted
 
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