Questions on 6.5X47 lapua?

Thanks for that excellent post Obtunded. I had to look up "anathema" :). I understand alot of what you said. I was under the impression that the floating bolt head helped it to fit to it's situation and eliminate the need for truing. It makes sense that the movement will also work against a "precision fit". I'm so used to hunting rifles where 1moa is "good enough" and a trued remington is pretty uptown. The more I read and think about this stuff the more I like the 6.5 swede and a surgeon action.

How do the Coopers stack up compared to these custom actions? How are the Cooper barrels? I love my Cooper hunting rifles and they chamber the 6.5 swede, creedmore, 6.5-284, and the 6X47.

$$ to donuts the savage or rem can probably shoot as good or better than I can and I don't compete. I just want to have fun shooting tiny little groups and hitting some 500yd gophers:). With anything I do however, it's way more fun to do it well!
 
As we typically conclude, different strokes for different folks.

Some of the issues that need to be remedied in a REM and are dealt with in a custom action are resolved with the floating bolt head which is fully locked when the bolt is shut.

The articulating bolt head ensures that the lugs will ALWAYS contact the receiver no matter what happens during the firing process. This is a major problem with ALL solid bolt front locking actions from an accuracy perspective. The bolt bodys will move when the sear is released.

This movement must transmit to the lugs which can cause all manner of ill. This is why custom and tuned Rems have oversized bolts or tabs to keep the bolt locked up in the action body.

In a Savage, the bolt body is separated from the bolt head thus cannot influence it during the firing cycle.

There are certainly truths regarding alignments of firing pin, chamber, etc, etc. and I have built several rifles using conventional shoulder headspace AND barrel nut headspacing.

Now maybe this is due to precise manf (some reports say the Savage action is pretty much true from the factory) but fired brass has shown zip for runout front and rear. Case heads have stayed square to the rest of the case indicating a true lock up.

I wouldn't bother with an action that couldn't deliver consistent performance for the F class game. The reason I continue to shoot Savages is simply because after a dozen actions and many more barrels, I have yet to find anything to fault.

The firing pin hole in the bolt head is larger then some and high pressure loads will show cratering of the primer but I consider this a good thing. It has proven to be a very consistent and reliable indicator of pressure and I am running my loads on the warm side.

There was a questions about barrel performance on a given action and from the perspective of an F class rifle ie 1/4 min accuracy, I would say that any quality barrel installed on a Savage or tuned Rem will do exactly the same thing.

My rifles shoot in the 2's, Rem and customs shoot in the same accuracy range. Believe me, if I was giving up accuracy, I would have dumped this action years ago.

Will we see more Savage/Stevens in F class competition? We already are and that numbe is growing. Will it ever become the action of choice? NOPE

The fact that Mustangs and Hondas can go as fast if not faster then Porsche will never affect sales of Porsches one bit.

For those that buy a true custom action, the quality of machining and function is amazing. Yes, I have tried them and you truly get a sense of WOW, this is some fine piece of kit.

Do they shoot any better? In the F class game, I haven't seen it happen yet....

Please note that the top shooters will outshoot me no matter what gear they have. Judging conditions will always be more important then the part that goes bang.

Jerry
 
The question pertained to customs versus cheaper actions. When it comes down to it, I think an unmodified Savage is better than an unmodified Remington for potential accuracy.

Frank O. from Mission has a completely different take on things.... he uses cleaned-up Trukish Mauser actions and does VERY well with them and many would call that insane from a precision perspective.

At the end of the day, Almost any gun and allmmost any shooter can shoot a 1MOA group. It become exponentially more difficult to make those groups get smaller with each 10'th of an MOA. By the time you are down to consistent .1 to consistent .3, you have more under your belt than just a good action.

The net has been paved with layers of bull$hit over this subject. You can have tons of fun with a Honda, but there is an appreciation for the refinement of a BMW, and it is true of any good piece of machinery. We can apply this argument to golf clubs, pistols, fly rods and cute versus ugly consorts.

I know of no shooter that ever regretted investing in quality equipment.
 
Obtunded said:
The question pertained to customs versus cheaper actions. When it comes down to it, I think an unmodified Savage is better than an unmodified Remington for potential accuracy.
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Yes, and thanks to everybody for the replies and NOT loosing their tempers on the subject. I know how these "subjective" threads can go ;). The net is filled with info.... some not very good.

I like mauser actions and I own several. Why aren't they used for custom target rifles? It seems with each post it brings up two more questions, sorry 'bout that!
 
kimberman said:
I like mauser actions and I own several. Why aren't they used for custom target rifles? It seems with each post it brings up two more questions, sorry 'bout that!
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They were and still are.

The issue is cost, work and availability. Most will go to the Rem because it is so much easier to work on and fits easily into common tools. Ease, yields speed, which yields profit.

Flat bottom actions like the Mauser, P Enfields and Wins take more set up but make wonderfully accurate rifles. Since they are not as popular, there is less aftermarket, so less interest, etc, etc, etc.

But there a few top tier smiths in the US making Win 64's and even 70's that make a custom Rem an inexpensive item.

Because lots and lots and lots of Rems were built over the last 40yrs, there is an enormous aftermarket and wealth of info. That makes it far easier for anyone to get going right off the mark.

Custom actions just solve all the issues with the factory Rem right out of the box. You pay a premium but you get a superbly machined product...most of the time.

And Yes, a reg box stock Rem 700 can also be turned into one of these customs with an infusion of parts and quality craftmenship. At the end of the day, they both look and function the same but the custom will always have more cachet.

Mausers, many of which were manf in WWII, have been built into some of the most expensive rifles PERIOD. Sure alot is embellishments but someone (a whole bunch of someones) thought this action ideal for their tasks.

With enough time, effort and parts, you can make a Mauser competitive in most forms of competitive shooting. But then why go through the hassle and limitations and COSTS, when you can get a Rem for less of all the above? Of a Savage for even lower $$?

Savage has literally been the ugly duckling in the mix. The orig ones had issues no doubt. Very little interest was paid to them cause they were different and some shot like CRAP (remember Savage went under not too long ago).

The company that is now, has taken the basic simple and effective design, spun on some decent factory barrels, kept the QC up and the features high and sold a whack of them.

Strong sales has lead to more aftermarket bits and offering, which has lead to more stuff, etc, etc.

It is safe to say that the Savage today is what Rem was in the 80's. Unfortunately, Rem is languishing but there is always hope.

No matter the action, the BARREL and the chamber cut is really the heart of your accuracy potential. Once you have top tier match barrel with a true chamber cut, the rest is really up to loading quality straight ammo and tuning to what the barrel likes.

The action simply makes ignition, chambering and extraction possible.

If you look at the range of F class type rifles built on every possible combination of stuff, you will see a very common trend in performance. pretty much everything taps out in the 1/4 min range with a lot of high end stuff, only averaging in the 3's at LR.

My feeling is the BULLET is now the limiting factor in LR accuracy.

Jerry
 
MysticPlayer, I find it is Very hard to Argue with you on any Point. Because you Alway Right, Definitely Got my Respect!, You Really Know YOU STUFF.
"Savage has literally been the ugly duckling in the mix" Very TRUE, but sometime Ugly is better than Look with out Talent.
 
Obtunded said:
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I had difficulty making a 6mmX47 Lapua work consistently, and I had suspected there might be some validity to to the primer argument, and so I took some Norma 6XC brass and made some cases (it took more work than I reckoned) and in the end, there was not one iota difference in accuracy or average velocity, in fact with BR2's the ES were notably worse.

I use CCI 450 magnum primers in '47 brass and they worked just fine, although in general, I found the 6mmX47 to be a difficult cartirdge to make work consistently very well.

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I'd like to hear more about your 6X47 experiences.
I was going to have one built (over a 6mmbr), but after reading about your issues I am beginning to wonder about my choice?
I suppose the 6mmbr is king for a reason....
 
mysticplayer said:
For those that buy a true custom action, the quality of machining and function is amazing. Yes, I have tried them and you truly get a sense of WOW, this is some fine piece of kit.

Do they shoot any better? In the F class game, I haven't seen it happen yet....

Please note that the top shooters will outshoot me no matter what gear they have. Judging conditions will always be more important then the part that goes bang.

Jerry
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I have found exactly the same thing. The top shooters whether they have shot a P17 action or a Rem 700 "Mongrel" always beat me with my Custom action. I realized long ago that as much as I liked custom actions and they did make me feel better I wasn't winning anymore then if I had a modified Rem 700. All my F-Class guns are now Rem 700's or even Mausers. I sold my custom actions. Don't get me wrong, still like them, just don't need them to be a winner in F-Class. Let someone else enjoy them.
 
X-fan said:
I'd like to hear more about your 6X47 experiences.
I was going to have one built (over a 6mmbr), but after reading about your issues I am beginning to wonder about my choice?
I suppose the 6mmbr is king for a reason....
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I am a 6mm addict and I had to try one as soon as the brass was on the market. The first batch of brass was terrible, and needed to be turned to 12 thou to even it out.

I had tried every 6mm 105 to 115 grain bullet with the two powders regarded as "the best" 4350 and N160, and it sucked. I tried Varget, RL15 and RL19, 4831 and no luck. The breakthrough was N560 powder. 39 grains and it bug holed. I shot a match in Nanaimo and never dropped a point. (Berger 108 bullets)

I took that hummer load and shot a match in mission, and you'd swear I had used a 12-gauge. Throat had not worn, it was clean, I dunno. Switched to 105 VLD's and it printed and entire sheet pretty .2 and .3" groups and I was all set to shoot it in the Provincials, when I took it out to dust it off, and it was shotgunning. Mick and I looked this over and it was as straight and true as can be. Even changing scopes made no difference.

Life is too short for a gun that causes that many headaches, so it became another 6BR.

I repeated the experiment with a 7" twist, and by this time RL17 had hit the shelves (the magic bullet). It developed incredible velocity (3100+ with 115's) but no accuracy. It would produce phenomenal groups at 2700 fps, but it did not like anything faster. Back to N560. At the drillers match last year, it shot a 2.5" group in the 600M group match and Tied for 1st in the Sierra match, but it was just not as consistent. I suspect the 1:7 is too much twist.

I spun off the barrel and will play with it a bit more when bullets and powder become a bit easier to find, but in the mean time it is back in 6BR livery.

In contrast, the 6XC has been very easy to get working well. 39 grains of 4350 and a 115 Berger does 2975 in nice little groups.

6BR or a Dasher are pretty hard to beat for inherent accuracy and ease of making work.

All my F-Class guns are now Rem 700's or even Mausers. I sold my custom actions. Don't get me wrong, still like them, just don't need them to be a winner in F-Class. Let someone else enjoy them
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MOST of my f-class rifles are Remingtons. I use single-shot XR100's and XP100's They are as good as any custom. I have Nesika as well.

As I'm sure you have all expereinced, watch the face of a new shooter light up when they take YOUR accurate rifle and shoot a clean string. The wheels begin turning. Good shooters get that way for a reason, but an accurate rifle makes an accurate shooter.
 
Interesting about your 6mm experiments. When I started out in F-Class VLD bullets didn't exist or were a custom bullet available in limited quantities. You could only get the old 140gr 6.5 Sierra's, but you could get 107gr 6mm Sierra's. So I built a .243 Ackley and it shot well, but the barrel lost its accuracy in one season. I then rebarreled that action into a Norma 6BR which just came out at the time. It shot reasonably well, but I suspect that barrel wasn't up to snuff as I could never get it to group with the 107 Sierra, but it's all I had at the time. Just after that Sierra announced it's 142gr VLD 6.5 and that took off. Every one at the time jumped on that bandwagon and it's still rolling. Bigger bullets with better B.C.'s still buck wind better as the US F-Class Nationals made clear and a .30 210gr, but I still see the 6BR holding it's own very well. I may just end up trying it again in one of my Rem 700 with a nice Kreiger and all the new bullets. I like that Dasher case. I'd like to team that up with a 6.5x55 Ackley or rebarrel my .260 Ackley again.
On the other hand when the winds blow hard that .284 Win does sound appealing. I have not seen what the 6.5x47 Lapua can do over the course, but will those Berger 130's compete with the bigger VLD's?
 
Quote I have not seen what the 6.5x47 Lapua can do over the course, but will those Berger 130's compete with the bigger VLD's?

what bigger VLDs ? 7mm 30 cal 338 cal?
 
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