Questions regarding cartridge length on 8mm mauser: Spitzer vs Round nose
- Thread starter deanyang
- Start date
Looks like you have things sorted, which is good.
However, PPU or Prvi brass is not my first choice. i started with it as nothing else was available, but it does not rank very high IMHO. I eventually was able to obtain some R-P and things settled down.
I also used the Speer 150, OAL of 2.890. My load did 2900 fps, in Prvi brass. On OAL, as a general rule of thumb, having the shank of the bullet fully supported in the neck of the case, will get you the best accuracy. One of those ballistic "rules" I suppose.
Nitro
However, PPU or Prvi brass is not my first choice. i started with it as nothing else was available, but it does not rank very high IMHO. I eventually was able to obtain some R-P and things settled down.
I also used the Speer 150, OAL of 2.890. My load did 2900 fps, in Prvi brass. On OAL, as a general rule of thumb, having the shank of the bullet fully supported in the neck of the case, will get you the best accuracy. One of those ballistic "rules" I suppose.
Nitro
It looks like you are finally on the right track. Perhaps english is your second language, and you are getting the terminology mixed up. Those Speer bullets are spitzers, and they do not have a cannelure.
The 8x57 cartridge was designed for a much heavier and longer bullet - around 200 grains. So the 150 g bullet is shorter by about 1/4 of an inch. That is why they seat so shallow in the case at the COL you have chosen. They should work OK - the "bullet dia rule" is not absolute, I have loaded lots of bullets with similar neck engagement.
You can go to the Speer website, they have all the reloading data you need for the 150 gr Speer Hot-Cor. They list the tested COL at 2.89 inches. Since you've checked your slightly longer rounds for fit in your chamber, you can continue with your chosen COL. Note - If you change to a different bullet specification, you need to establish the proper COL for that bullet.
The 8x57 cartridge was designed for a much heavier and longer bullet - around 200 grains. So the 150 g bullet is shorter by about 1/4 of an inch. That is why they seat so shallow in the case at the COL you have chosen. They should work OK - the "bullet dia rule" is not absolute, I have loaded lots of bullets with similar neck engagement.
You can go to the Speer website, they have all the reloading data you need for the 150 gr Speer Hot-Cor. They list the tested COL at 2.89 inches. Since you've checked your slightly longer rounds for fit in your chamber, you can continue with your chosen COL. Note - If you change to a different bullet specification, you need to establish the proper COL for that bullet.
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- Location
- Western Manitoba
Dean - if you were really in dire straights for supplies, is fairly straight forward to form 30-06 / 270 Win / 35 Whelen - perhaps 25-06, etc, - brass into 8x57IS brass - you already have an 8x57 Full Length sizing die - that long taper on the Lee expander is almost made for expanding a 30 caliber to 8mm - and I presume that you have some way to cut your brass to length - the re-formed 30-06 will be about 6mm (1/4") too long in the neck, if it even goes in all the way into the die the first time.
But, some might consider that a bit advanced for a new hand loader. To keep in mind, that would likely work as a "Plan B", if you get desperate for boxer primed 8x57 brass.
The head stamp would still say "30-06", but the reformed brass would not chamber into a 30-06 rifle - the necks would be too "fat". Is also a possibility that the neck portion of the new made case, now made from the shoulder and perhaps the wall of the 30-06 parent case, might be a tad thick - so might need case neck wall thinning - another tool, etc. - but is not a certainty that would be needed in your rifle.
Many moons ago - late 1970's, I was given a batch of IVI 73 7.62 NATO brass. Many more than I needed for my 308 Win rifle, and I also had a 243 Win rifle at the time. So I forced 50 of those brass into and out of an RCBS 243 Win Full Length sizing die. "Everyone" told me that I would have to thin the necks - I even bought a tool to do that, but someone forgot to tell that story to the rifle - those re-formed brass worked just fine - I still have about 35 of them left. They might not have fit into somebody else's 243 Win, but I was not loading for their rifle.
But, some might consider that a bit advanced for a new hand loader. To keep in mind, that would likely work as a "Plan B", if you get desperate for boxer primed 8x57 brass.
The head stamp would still say "30-06", but the reformed brass would not chamber into a 30-06 rifle - the necks would be too "fat". Is also a possibility that the neck portion of the new made case, now made from the shoulder and perhaps the wall of the 30-06 parent case, might be a tad thick - so might need case neck wall thinning - another tool, etc. - but is not a certainty that would be needed in your rifle.
Many moons ago - late 1970's, I was given a batch of IVI 73 7.62 NATO brass. Many more than I needed for my 308 Win rifle, and I also had a 243 Win rifle at the time. So I forced 50 of those brass into and out of an RCBS 243 Win Full Length sizing die. "Everyone" told me that I would have to thin the necks - I even bought a tool to do that, but someone forgot to tell that story to the rifle - those re-formed brass worked just fine - I still have about 35 of them left. They might not have fit into somebody else's 243 Win, but I was not loading for their rifle.
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No, you don't have to trim them back yet.
If your case length isn't over 2.240 it will be just fine.
In truth, in the real world you can likely get away with 2.245
If you want to trim, just to make sure all of your case lengths are identical, IMHO just extra work for little or no extra result, go for it.
after the first firing, check to see how much the case length has increased and trim if needed.
You're overthinking all of the reloading process.
There are several steps of the reloading process that should be written in stone. Many of the others can be tweaked to favor your individual rifle.
One thing is "full length resizing" IS NOT really necessary if you're going to be using the cases in the same rifle.
I've loaded and shot hundreds of thousands of different cartridges, through a couple of thousand rifles.
When I'm shooting new, unfired cases through a new rifle, I set the sizing die so that I only size the neck to the point where it just touches the shoulder junction.
This is a very good and often critical junction.
If your die is set at this point, every time you run those cases through the die, you will take them back to/close to factory original spec and lessen the frequency of having to trim the cases.
This takes a lot of work stress off the rest of the case and your cases should fit your chamber closely and this will allow them to last longer before they need to be re annealed. Usually up to 6 firings.
As far as seating depth of the bullet is concerned, as mentioned previously, you are limited by the length of your rifle's magazine well.
If the cartridge will fit into your magazine well, without binding, it will chamber just fine.
As an example, one common practice back in the day was to seat FMJ bullets, with exposed lead bases, nose first into the case.
In some rifles, this caused issues with feeding, but most just digested everything they were fed.
This made the cartridges with the FMJ legal for hunting big game. The bullets actually performed quite well out past 200 meters as far as accuracy and expansion were concerned, usually better than if they were loaded the other way around.
As far as your bullet selection, ROUND NOSE BULLETS WORK JUST FINE and will shoot every bit as well as spire points out past 250 meters with very little if any velocity loss or wind deflection.
Round nose bullets do tend to be slightly more frangible so accurate loads, rather than high velocity loads will be what you're looking for.
The cast lead folks had it figured out a long time ago when it comes to bullet shapes at the velocities they shoot. Big FLAT NOSES work better at lower velocities.
I would suggest you load up your first batch of cartridges as far out as possible.
If you have .200+thou of the base of a flat base bullet into your case mouth, with the 150 grain hand loads, chances are in your favor that they will feed from the magazine just fine and be quite accurate.
My go to load for 150 grain bullets, no matter what their shape is 60.0 grains of H380 over cci250 magnum primers.
This load is moderate at best. It's just very slightly compressed, which is what ball powders like, generate 2850+ fps and my rifle shoots it better than I can hold.
Very informative! I measured all my resized brass, they all became a bit longer than factory, not sure if that is normal, my factory unfired measured in the lower 2.23x, right now they are all like 2.245~8, I guess I will trim them all to 2.235?
I will seat 10 with 8mm depth and 10 as far out as possible and try them out on both my mausers.
Cheers!
Dean
One caliber of seating depth, is not mandatory by any means. It's a go to starting point to provide enough neck/bullet tension to keep pressures equal and in the most efficient range.
The next reason is to stop bullets from falling out and tipping in the case mouth when the cartridge is being fed from the magazine.
The 8x57 case is quite limited as far as space goes for powder.
By seating the bullet further out, there is more room for powder, if you want a very slight velocity gain.
The other benefit of seating the bullets further out is that they are closer to the leades and if your rifle has a generous chamber, this could really enhance the accuracy of your loads. I can't count the number of times when seating the bullets closer to the leades has taken a mediocre load and made it exceptional.
Most military rifles have generous chambers with a lot of freebore, for obvious reasons. This is where neck sizing only and seating the bullets out as far as possible really shines.
8mm Mauser is one of my pet calibers, it just does so many things right. Therefore I did post a few replies to share my experience and insight. Giving detailed technical help is a bit challenging as there seems to be an unwillingness to share details.
Case in point it, you seem to have a few bullets, and I believe the RN bullet you refer to seems to be a Hornady. Next seems to be Speer 150 gr Hot-Cor. You mention Benchmark powder and your primer choice isn't mentioned.
You prefer a 170 gr bullet, and that puzzles me a bit as well as they are mostly RN. The Hornady 170 SST is of course a bullet with a decent BC, it would be a good choice, unfortunately it wasn't available when I was working out loads with the 8mm Mauser.
I've read or skimmed most of the posts to ascertain the direction this is going and to what end.
I'd like to know what you are trying to accomplish. I hunted with a 30-06 back in the day, but really liked the idea of having a foul weather spare rifle. I also wanted to gain some experience with the 8x57 Mauser. To that end I bought a Husqvarna FN98 from Tradeex. It had seen very little use and was unmolested. I installed a different front ramp and sight, and a Williams receiver sight. The original front ramp fell off one day when testing some loads. The solder finally let go.
Back on track: To be a back-up the rifle it had to be capable of taking Whitetail, and if required a moose. Nathan Foster in New Zealand has done so pretty extensive bullet testing and has a great web site.
https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/8x57JS+Mauser.html
After reading his article, I chose to load Speer 150's and 200's, and a few 196 gr RN Sako or something like that. My throat is fairly short on my rifle, OAL in some instances was a bit shorter than recommended. Again, read Nathans article on OAL.
IMHO some of the advice in this thread is way beyond what has to be considered for your project. Then again, I don't think you listed any of your rifle details, so i'll just assume it is a K98. The magazine in the K98 is 3.250" long, OAL will not be limited by that. Most, but not all the throats or leade on 8x57 rifles is pretty generous, Therefore having a round jam into the rifling will probably not happen. Therefore, my suggestion still is to seat as per Nathans article, have the shank of the bullet fully supported by the neck of the case.
Seating out in an attempt to reach the rifling is something like trying to fix a problem you probably don't have, and the solution to the problem you may not have will in all likelihood lead to inaccuracies and other issues.
It's my guess that you are a bit overwhelmed and confused. I've read most of the posts, and I'm confused. You want to do what's right and are open to suggestions. Unfortunately, you don't have the knowledge or experience needed to seperate the chaff from the wheat.
Not that I want to overwhelm you at this juncture, but lets consider loading the Hornady SST, after all it's the nicest looking bullet out there. An ELD-X in 8mm would be nice, if we're allowed to dream. All Hornady bullets use a secant ogive. One of the characteristics of a secant ogive bullet is that it has some preferences when it comes to it's relationship with the rifling. There are match bullets out there and to get the maximum benefit out that shape, they like to be close to the rifling. This is critical, and target shooter will adjust this religiously. The next somewhat strange characteristic of a secant ogive bullet is that as the ogive moves away from the rifling, accuracy goes for a crap, really bad real quick. Then, as if by magic, when a secant ogive bullet is about 0.100" off the rifling it becomes accurate again. I chased my tail on getting close to the rifling for longer than I want to admit. Now I seat properly in the neck, and check to see if I have clearance or IOW, ensure I am not jamming into the rifling. Accuracy issues are fine tuned with the powder charge. When throat erosion becomes excessive after several thousand rounds, most often a slight increase in powder charge will restore "hunting" accuracy. Competition target shooting is another deal altogether, best discussed on other forums.
I've looked at some data, Benchmark should work for you. I used CFE 223 as it was the new kid on the block when I was in 8mm Mauser land. I later tested with Varget, and it worked for me as well. Varget works best when the load density is near 100% and pressure is near the top. At the time it was also very available.
A bit of history: When the German Military revised the 8x57, and went from 318 to 323 they also left their heavy RN bullet behind. They chose a lighter 150 gr bullet and in WWII they had a special powder designed to give high velocity and low flash. That powder formula is basically unknown and to my knowledge has never been duplicated. In aircraft and machine guns the bullet was a heavier bullet than than the infantry bullet, with a pretty decent BC. The point being, most bullets from 150 to 200 grains will work nicely in the 8mm Mauser.
I bought my 8mm brass from Tradeex, I just checked, they do not have stock. https://www.tesro.ca/reloading/brass/lapua-8-x-57-is-reloading-cases-x-100-box-of-100.html has one box left.
Reforming 30-06, or any other case has it's own accompanying issues. I've formed different calibers, obliterating the parent case headstamp was a step that I never mastered. I also found turning the necks to be tedious and laborious. In the end, I came to the conclusion that the correct factory brass wasn't really that expensive. Fortunately I have brass for most of my calibers and some brass hoarded for calibers I don't have a rifle for yet. Anyone need some 32-20 brass? Or does anyone have a 32-20 rifle to sell?
Nitro.
Case in point it, you seem to have a few bullets, and I believe the RN bullet you refer to seems to be a Hornady. Next seems to be Speer 150 gr Hot-Cor. You mention Benchmark powder and your primer choice isn't mentioned.
You prefer a 170 gr bullet, and that puzzles me a bit as well as they are mostly RN. The Hornady 170 SST is of course a bullet with a decent BC, it would be a good choice, unfortunately it wasn't available when I was working out loads with the 8mm Mauser.
I've read or skimmed most of the posts to ascertain the direction this is going and to what end.
I'd like to know what you are trying to accomplish. I hunted with a 30-06 back in the day, but really liked the idea of having a foul weather spare rifle. I also wanted to gain some experience with the 8x57 Mauser. To that end I bought a Husqvarna FN98 from Tradeex. It had seen very little use and was unmolested. I installed a different front ramp and sight, and a Williams receiver sight. The original front ramp fell off one day when testing some loads. The solder finally let go.
Back on track: To be a back-up the rifle it had to be capable of taking Whitetail, and if required a moose. Nathan Foster in New Zealand has done so pretty extensive bullet testing and has a great web site.
https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/8x57JS+Mauser.html
After reading his article, I chose to load Speer 150's and 200's, and a few 196 gr RN Sako or something like that. My throat is fairly short on my rifle, OAL in some instances was a bit shorter than recommended. Again, read Nathans article on OAL.
IMHO some of the advice in this thread is way beyond what has to be considered for your project. Then again, I don't think you listed any of your rifle details, so i'll just assume it is a K98. The magazine in the K98 is 3.250" long, OAL will not be limited by that. Most, but not all the throats or leade on 8x57 rifles is pretty generous, Therefore having a round jam into the rifling will probably not happen. Therefore, my suggestion still is to seat as per Nathans article, have the shank of the bullet fully supported by the neck of the case.
Seating out in an attempt to reach the rifling is something like trying to fix a problem you probably don't have, and the solution to the problem you may not have will in all likelihood lead to inaccuracies and other issues.
It's my guess that you are a bit overwhelmed and confused. I've read most of the posts, and I'm confused. You want to do what's right and are open to suggestions. Unfortunately, you don't have the knowledge or experience needed to seperate the chaff from the wheat.
Not that I want to overwhelm you at this juncture, but lets consider loading the Hornady SST, after all it's the nicest looking bullet out there. An ELD-X in 8mm would be nice, if we're allowed to dream. All Hornady bullets use a secant ogive. One of the characteristics of a secant ogive bullet is that it has some preferences when it comes to it's relationship with the rifling. There are match bullets out there and to get the maximum benefit out that shape, they like to be close to the rifling. This is critical, and target shooter will adjust this religiously. The next somewhat strange characteristic of a secant ogive bullet is that as the ogive moves away from the rifling, accuracy goes for a crap, really bad real quick. Then, as if by magic, when a secant ogive bullet is about 0.100" off the rifling it becomes accurate again. I chased my tail on getting close to the rifling for longer than I want to admit. Now I seat properly in the neck, and check to see if I have clearance or IOW, ensure I am not jamming into the rifling. Accuracy issues are fine tuned with the powder charge. When throat erosion becomes excessive after several thousand rounds, most often a slight increase in powder charge will restore "hunting" accuracy. Competition target shooting is another deal altogether, best discussed on other forums.
I've looked at some data, Benchmark should work for you. I used CFE 223 as it was the new kid on the block when I was in 8mm Mauser land. I later tested with Varget, and it worked for me as well. Varget works best when the load density is near 100% and pressure is near the top. At the time it was also very available.
A bit of history: When the German Military revised the 8x57, and went from 318 to 323 they also left their heavy RN bullet behind. They chose a lighter 150 gr bullet and in WWII they had a special powder designed to give high velocity and low flash. That powder formula is basically unknown and to my knowledge has never been duplicated. In aircraft and machine guns the bullet was a heavier bullet than than the infantry bullet, with a pretty decent BC. The point being, most bullets from 150 to 200 grains will work nicely in the 8mm Mauser.
I bought my 8mm brass from Tradeex, I just checked, they do not have stock. https://www.tesro.ca/reloading/brass/lapua-8-x-57-is-reloading-cases-x-100-box-of-100.html has one box left.
Reforming 30-06, or any other case has it's own accompanying issues. I've formed different calibers, obliterating the parent case headstamp was a step that I never mastered. I also found turning the necks to be tedious and laborious. In the end, I came to the conclusion that the correct factory brass wasn't really that expensive. Fortunately I have brass for most of my calibers and some brass hoarded for calibers I don't have a rifle for yet. Anyone need some 32-20 brass? Or does anyone have a 32-20 rifle to sell?
Nitro.
Measure the distance to the bullet end with the bullet shoved into the lands. This is your max OAL, period. Then measure the length of your magazine. Make sure you give yourself enough clearance for the rounds to move in the mag. That will be your minimum OAL. If you're lucky, there will be a reasonable resemblance between those numbers. If not, decide which is more important to you, getting closer to your lands or a functioning repeater? That will give you a number to work with that will work in your firearm. - dan
Measure the distance to the bullet end with the bullet shoved into the lands. This is your absolute max OAL, period. Then measure the length of your magazine. Make sure you give yourself enough clearance for the rounds to move in the mag. That will be your repeater maximum OAL. If you're lucky, there will be a reasonable resemblance between those numbers. If not, decide which is more important to you, getting closer to your lands or a functioning repeater? That will give you a number to work with that will work in your firearm. [/QUOTE]
Fixed it.
If it was my rifle (and assuming I was not trying to get the last little bit of accuracy from it) I would load the first round to the cannelure and then chamber it. If it came out without rifling marks, I would then see if it fits the magazine ok. If no rifling marks and fits the mag I would note that OAL in the log and carry on.
- Location
- Western Manitoba
I am not sure that I know what rifle you intend to fire this in - if it is a military mauser with an unaltered extractor, then you will have to insert first round into magazine and then close the bolt - you will not be able to "single feed" an unaltered military Mauser, so what Ganderite refers to as your "Repeater Maximum OAL", also becomes your de facto maximum OAL, unless you remove your bolt for each shot - snap a round onto the bolt face and re-insert into the rifle.
- Location
- Western Manitoba
I do not have many examples here with unaltered extractors, but well worth to try - I never had thought to do that. Maybe I will deliberately make a couple overly long and try that. I was mostly a hunting guy, not a target shooting guy, so all the loaded stuff here fits in the mag boxes.
